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Why does the ash-clearing kohen get a reminder of where the shovel is?
The Next CEO of Stack OverflowParashat Shemini + ParaWhere was the Kodesh haKodoshim?Where is the Covenant BoxHow could Yochanan Kohen Gadol abolish the wakers?Why didn't kohanim undress themselves?Why cover coals in the Temple, and what if the cover was needed?How could the Kohen Gadol see when he went in the Holy of Holies?Where in halachah does it say that one is forbidden to go onto the Har HaBayis?Where does the zecher lechurban go in an apartment building?Where did the incense-altar sweeper get his broom from?Why doesn't the Torah mention the Beis Hamikdash?
In Tamid 1:4, in describing the daily service of clearing the previous day's ash from the Altar, the Mishna tells us of a reminder the assembled kohanim would give to the one kohen selected for the ash job:
וְהֵם אוֹמְרִים לוֹ, הִזָּהֵר שֶׁמָּא תִגַּע בַּכְּלִי, עַד שֶׁתְּקַדֵּשׁ יָדֶיךָ וְרַגְלֶיךָ מִן הַכִּיּוֹר, וַהֲרֵי הַמַּחְתָּה נְתוּנָה בַמִּקְצוֹעַ בֵּין הַכֶּבֶשׁ לַמִּזְבֵּחַ, בְּמַעֲרָבוֹ שֶׁל כָּבֶשׁ.
"Be careful to not touch the utensil [the shovel] until you have sanctified your hands and feet from the laver." And [they would continue saying],"Look, the shovel is placed in the corner between the ramp [of the altar] and the altar, on the west of the ramp."
I understand why it would make sense to make warning the ash-clearer to wash before starting the service part of the routine. The Torah tells us (Ex. 30:20-21) that making sure to wash before serving in the Temple is a matter of life and death:
בְּבֹאָ֞ם אֶל־אֹ֧הֶל מוֹעֵ֛ד יִרְחֲצוּ־מַ֖יִם וְלֹ֣א יָמֻ֑תוּ א֣וֹ בְגִשְׁתָּ֤ם אֶל־הַמִּזְבֵּ֙חַ֙ לְשָׁרֵ֔ת לְהַקְטִ֥יר אִשֶּׁ֖ה לַֽיהוָֽה׃ וְרָחֲצ֛וּ יְדֵיהֶ֥ם וְרַגְלֵיהֶ֖ם וְלֹ֣א יָמֻ֑תוּ וְהָיְתָ֨ה לָהֶ֧ם חָק־עוֹלָ֛ם ל֥וֹ וּלְזַרְע֖וֹ לְדֹרֹתָֽם׃
When they enter the Tent of Meeting they shall wash with water, that they may not die; or when they approach the altar to serve, to turn into smoke an offering by fire to the LORD, they shall wash their hands and feet, that they may not die. It shall be a law for all time for them—for him and his offspring—throughout the ages.
I don't understand the motivation for the second reminder.1 Why follow a dire warning to comply with the rules with an apparently routine reminder of the location of the tool to use? There are many details of the service about to be performed that the kohanim could remind ash-clearer of, including the location to deposit the ash (described later in this mishna). Why specifically remind him, every time, of where the shovel is?
1. Tosafot Yom Tov s.v. "והרי המחתה" explicitly interprets the second sentence as part of the statement of the kohanim, as is rendered in the Sefaria translation quoted here. This strikes me as consistent with the word "והרי" introducing that sentence. I haven't seen any commentators that interpret this sentence as a description by the mishna rather than an instruction by the kohanim.
beis-hamikdash maseches-tamid temple-service-avoda
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In Tamid 1:4, in describing the daily service of clearing the previous day's ash from the Altar, the Mishna tells us of a reminder the assembled kohanim would give to the one kohen selected for the ash job:
וְהֵם אוֹמְרִים לוֹ, הִזָּהֵר שֶׁמָּא תִגַּע בַּכְּלִי, עַד שֶׁתְּקַדֵּשׁ יָדֶיךָ וְרַגְלֶיךָ מִן הַכִּיּוֹר, וַהֲרֵי הַמַּחְתָּה נְתוּנָה בַמִּקְצוֹעַ בֵּין הַכֶּבֶשׁ לַמִּזְבֵּחַ, בְּמַעֲרָבוֹ שֶׁל כָּבֶשׁ.
"Be careful to not touch the utensil [the shovel] until you have sanctified your hands and feet from the laver." And [they would continue saying],"Look, the shovel is placed in the corner between the ramp [of the altar] and the altar, on the west of the ramp."
I understand why it would make sense to make warning the ash-clearer to wash before starting the service part of the routine. The Torah tells us (Ex. 30:20-21) that making sure to wash before serving in the Temple is a matter of life and death:
בְּבֹאָ֞ם אֶל־אֹ֧הֶל מוֹעֵ֛ד יִרְחֲצוּ־מַ֖יִם וְלֹ֣א יָמֻ֑תוּ א֣וֹ בְגִשְׁתָּ֤ם אֶל־הַמִּזְבֵּ֙חַ֙ לְשָׁרֵ֔ת לְהַקְטִ֥יר אִשֶּׁ֖ה לַֽיהוָֽה׃ וְרָחֲצ֛וּ יְדֵיהֶ֥ם וְרַגְלֵיהֶ֖ם וְלֹ֣א יָמֻ֑תוּ וְהָיְתָ֨ה לָהֶ֧ם חָק־עוֹלָ֛ם ל֥וֹ וּלְזַרְע֖וֹ לְדֹרֹתָֽם׃
When they enter the Tent of Meeting they shall wash with water, that they may not die; or when they approach the altar to serve, to turn into smoke an offering by fire to the LORD, they shall wash their hands and feet, that they may not die. It shall be a law for all time for them—for him and his offspring—throughout the ages.
I don't understand the motivation for the second reminder.1 Why follow a dire warning to comply with the rules with an apparently routine reminder of the location of the tool to use? There are many details of the service about to be performed that the kohanim could remind ash-clearer of, including the location to deposit the ash (described later in this mishna). Why specifically remind him, every time, of where the shovel is?
1. Tosafot Yom Tov s.v. "והרי המחתה" explicitly interprets the second sentence as part of the statement of the kohanim, as is rendered in the Sefaria translation quoted here. This strikes me as consistent with the word "והרי" introducing that sentence. I haven't seen any commentators that interpret this sentence as a description by the mishna rather than an instruction by the kohanim.
beis-hamikdash maseches-tamid temple-service-avoda
3
Are you sure the shovel location is part of the quotation and not an explanation for us?
– WAF
yesterday
1
@WAF A few commentaries indicate as much explicitly, and I've yet to see one indicate the contrary. I'll add a footnote to that effect. Also, "וַהֲרֵי" sounds a lot like a continuation of the statement. I guess if you've got an interpretation of this mishna that undermines this question by explaining that line as being part of the Mishna's description, that'd be a valid answer.
– Isaac Moses♦
yesterday
1
Going to the mefarshim to the Mishnah as cited in the pseudo-Gemara on Tamid (28a), Mefaresh learns like you do (והרי המחתה - כל זה היה אומר לו), and the Rosh learns similarly (הרי המחתה נתונה - מראין לו מקומו של מחתה), but the Raavad argues (actually printed after the Masechta concludes, due to how much time he spends throughout the Masechta itself on page 27; והרי המחתה - פירוש שהרי המחתה הוה במקצוע בין כבש למזבח במערבה של כבש).
– DonielF
yesterday
And no, the pseudo-Gemara itself doesn’t say anything on the topic.
– DonielF
yesterday
@DonielF Thanks. An answer based on the Raavad would be worthwhile.
– Isaac Moses♦
yesterday
|
show 1 more comment
In Tamid 1:4, in describing the daily service of clearing the previous day's ash from the Altar, the Mishna tells us of a reminder the assembled kohanim would give to the one kohen selected for the ash job:
וְהֵם אוֹמְרִים לוֹ, הִזָּהֵר שֶׁמָּא תִגַּע בַּכְּלִי, עַד שֶׁתְּקַדֵּשׁ יָדֶיךָ וְרַגְלֶיךָ מִן הַכִּיּוֹר, וַהֲרֵי הַמַּחְתָּה נְתוּנָה בַמִּקְצוֹעַ בֵּין הַכֶּבֶשׁ לַמִּזְבֵּחַ, בְּמַעֲרָבוֹ שֶׁל כָּבֶשׁ.
"Be careful to not touch the utensil [the shovel] until you have sanctified your hands and feet from the laver." And [they would continue saying],"Look, the shovel is placed in the corner between the ramp [of the altar] and the altar, on the west of the ramp."
I understand why it would make sense to make warning the ash-clearer to wash before starting the service part of the routine. The Torah tells us (Ex. 30:20-21) that making sure to wash before serving in the Temple is a matter of life and death:
בְּבֹאָ֞ם אֶל־אֹ֧הֶל מוֹעֵ֛ד יִרְחֲצוּ־מַ֖יִם וְלֹ֣א יָמֻ֑תוּ א֣וֹ בְגִשְׁתָּ֤ם אֶל־הַמִּזְבֵּ֙חַ֙ לְשָׁרֵ֔ת לְהַקְטִ֥יר אִשֶּׁ֖ה לַֽיהוָֽה׃ וְרָחֲצ֛וּ יְדֵיהֶ֥ם וְרַגְלֵיהֶ֖ם וְלֹ֣א יָמֻ֑תוּ וְהָיְתָ֨ה לָהֶ֧ם חָק־עוֹלָ֛ם ל֥וֹ וּלְזַרְע֖וֹ לְדֹרֹתָֽם׃
When they enter the Tent of Meeting they shall wash with water, that they may not die; or when they approach the altar to serve, to turn into smoke an offering by fire to the LORD, they shall wash their hands and feet, that they may not die. It shall be a law for all time for them—for him and his offspring—throughout the ages.
I don't understand the motivation for the second reminder.1 Why follow a dire warning to comply with the rules with an apparently routine reminder of the location of the tool to use? There are many details of the service about to be performed that the kohanim could remind ash-clearer of, including the location to deposit the ash (described later in this mishna). Why specifically remind him, every time, of where the shovel is?
1. Tosafot Yom Tov s.v. "והרי המחתה" explicitly interprets the second sentence as part of the statement of the kohanim, as is rendered in the Sefaria translation quoted here. This strikes me as consistent with the word "והרי" introducing that sentence. I haven't seen any commentators that interpret this sentence as a description by the mishna rather than an instruction by the kohanim.
beis-hamikdash maseches-tamid temple-service-avoda
In Tamid 1:4, in describing the daily service of clearing the previous day's ash from the Altar, the Mishna tells us of a reminder the assembled kohanim would give to the one kohen selected for the ash job:
וְהֵם אוֹמְרִים לוֹ, הִזָּהֵר שֶׁמָּא תִגַּע בַּכְּלִי, עַד שֶׁתְּקַדֵּשׁ יָדֶיךָ וְרַגְלֶיךָ מִן הַכִּיּוֹר, וַהֲרֵי הַמַּחְתָּה נְתוּנָה בַמִּקְצוֹעַ בֵּין הַכֶּבֶשׁ לַמִּזְבֵּחַ, בְּמַעֲרָבוֹ שֶׁל כָּבֶשׁ.
"Be careful to not touch the utensil [the shovel] until you have sanctified your hands and feet from the laver." And [they would continue saying],"Look, the shovel is placed in the corner between the ramp [of the altar] and the altar, on the west of the ramp."
I understand why it would make sense to make warning the ash-clearer to wash before starting the service part of the routine. The Torah tells us (Ex. 30:20-21) that making sure to wash before serving in the Temple is a matter of life and death:
בְּבֹאָ֞ם אֶל־אֹ֧הֶל מוֹעֵ֛ד יִרְחֲצוּ־מַ֖יִם וְלֹ֣א יָמֻ֑תוּ א֣וֹ בְגִשְׁתָּ֤ם אֶל־הַמִּזְבֵּ֙חַ֙ לְשָׁרֵ֔ת לְהַקְטִ֥יר אִשֶּׁ֖ה לַֽיהוָֽה׃ וְרָחֲצ֛וּ יְדֵיהֶ֥ם וְרַגְלֵיהֶ֖ם וְלֹ֣א יָמֻ֑תוּ וְהָיְתָ֨ה לָהֶ֧ם חָק־עוֹלָ֛ם ל֥וֹ וּלְזַרְע֖וֹ לְדֹרֹתָֽם׃
When they enter the Tent of Meeting they shall wash with water, that they may not die; or when they approach the altar to serve, to turn into smoke an offering by fire to the LORD, they shall wash their hands and feet, that they may not die. It shall be a law for all time for them—for him and his offspring—throughout the ages.
I don't understand the motivation for the second reminder.1 Why follow a dire warning to comply with the rules with an apparently routine reminder of the location of the tool to use? There are many details of the service about to be performed that the kohanim could remind ash-clearer of, including the location to deposit the ash (described later in this mishna). Why specifically remind him, every time, of where the shovel is?
1. Tosafot Yom Tov s.v. "והרי המחתה" explicitly interprets the second sentence as part of the statement of the kohanim, as is rendered in the Sefaria translation quoted here. This strikes me as consistent with the word "והרי" introducing that sentence. I haven't seen any commentators that interpret this sentence as a description by the mishna rather than an instruction by the kohanim.
beis-hamikdash maseches-tamid temple-service-avoda
beis-hamikdash maseches-tamid temple-service-avoda
edited yesterday
Isaac Moses
asked yesterday
Isaac Moses♦Isaac Moses
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3
Are you sure the shovel location is part of the quotation and not an explanation for us?
– WAF
yesterday
1
@WAF A few commentaries indicate as much explicitly, and I've yet to see one indicate the contrary. I'll add a footnote to that effect. Also, "וַהֲרֵי" sounds a lot like a continuation of the statement. I guess if you've got an interpretation of this mishna that undermines this question by explaining that line as being part of the Mishna's description, that'd be a valid answer.
– Isaac Moses♦
yesterday
1
Going to the mefarshim to the Mishnah as cited in the pseudo-Gemara on Tamid (28a), Mefaresh learns like you do (והרי המחתה - כל זה היה אומר לו), and the Rosh learns similarly (הרי המחתה נתונה - מראין לו מקומו של מחתה), but the Raavad argues (actually printed after the Masechta concludes, due to how much time he spends throughout the Masechta itself on page 27; והרי המחתה - פירוש שהרי המחתה הוה במקצוע בין כבש למזבח במערבה של כבש).
– DonielF
yesterday
And no, the pseudo-Gemara itself doesn’t say anything on the topic.
– DonielF
yesterday
@DonielF Thanks. An answer based on the Raavad would be worthwhile.
– Isaac Moses♦
yesterday
|
show 1 more comment
3
Are you sure the shovel location is part of the quotation and not an explanation for us?
– WAF
yesterday
1
@WAF A few commentaries indicate as much explicitly, and I've yet to see one indicate the contrary. I'll add a footnote to that effect. Also, "וַהֲרֵי" sounds a lot like a continuation of the statement. I guess if you've got an interpretation of this mishna that undermines this question by explaining that line as being part of the Mishna's description, that'd be a valid answer.
– Isaac Moses♦
yesterday
1
Going to the mefarshim to the Mishnah as cited in the pseudo-Gemara on Tamid (28a), Mefaresh learns like you do (והרי המחתה - כל זה היה אומר לו), and the Rosh learns similarly (הרי המחתה נתונה - מראין לו מקומו של מחתה), but the Raavad argues (actually printed after the Masechta concludes, due to how much time he spends throughout the Masechta itself on page 27; והרי המחתה - פירוש שהרי המחתה הוה במקצוע בין כבש למזבח במערבה של כבש).
– DonielF
yesterday
And no, the pseudo-Gemara itself doesn’t say anything on the topic.
– DonielF
yesterday
@DonielF Thanks. An answer based on the Raavad would be worthwhile.
– Isaac Moses♦
yesterday
3
3
Are you sure the shovel location is part of the quotation and not an explanation for us?
– WAF
yesterday
Are you sure the shovel location is part of the quotation and not an explanation for us?
– WAF
yesterday
1
1
@WAF A few commentaries indicate as much explicitly, and I've yet to see one indicate the contrary. I'll add a footnote to that effect. Also, "וַהֲרֵי" sounds a lot like a continuation of the statement. I guess if you've got an interpretation of this mishna that undermines this question by explaining that line as being part of the Mishna's description, that'd be a valid answer.
– Isaac Moses♦
yesterday
@WAF A few commentaries indicate as much explicitly, and I've yet to see one indicate the contrary. I'll add a footnote to that effect. Also, "וַהֲרֵי" sounds a lot like a continuation of the statement. I guess if you've got an interpretation of this mishna that undermines this question by explaining that line as being part of the Mishna's description, that'd be a valid answer.
– Isaac Moses♦
yesterday
1
1
Going to the mefarshim to the Mishnah as cited in the pseudo-Gemara on Tamid (28a), Mefaresh learns like you do (והרי המחתה - כל זה היה אומר לו), and the Rosh learns similarly (הרי המחתה נתונה - מראין לו מקומו של מחתה), but the Raavad argues (actually printed after the Masechta concludes, due to how much time he spends throughout the Masechta itself on page 27; והרי המחתה - פירוש שהרי המחתה הוה במקצוע בין כבש למזבח במערבה של כבש).
– DonielF
yesterday
Going to the mefarshim to the Mishnah as cited in the pseudo-Gemara on Tamid (28a), Mefaresh learns like you do (והרי המחתה - כל זה היה אומר לו), and the Rosh learns similarly (הרי המחתה נתונה - מראין לו מקומו של מחתה), but the Raavad argues (actually printed after the Masechta concludes, due to how much time he spends throughout the Masechta itself on page 27; והרי המחתה - פירוש שהרי המחתה הוה במקצוע בין כבש למזבח במערבה של כבש).
– DonielF
yesterday
And no, the pseudo-Gemara itself doesn’t say anything on the topic.
– DonielF
yesterday
And no, the pseudo-Gemara itself doesn’t say anything on the topic.
– DonielF
yesterday
@DonielF Thanks. An answer based on the Raavad would be worthwhile.
– Isaac Moses♦
yesterday
@DonielF Thanks. An answer based on the Raavad would be worthwhile.
– Isaac Moses♦
yesterday
|
show 1 more comment
2 Answers
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I suspect (no source) that it's a combination of a two factors:
No one else was around when he fetched the shovel. (He was the only kohen to go to the other side of the ramp at this time.)
He hadn't done this task often if ever. (Only one person did it per day, so I'd guess most kohanim never did it at all.)
As for the location to deposit the ash (which you mention in the question), that was on the near side of the ramp, so they could remind him when they saw him come down.
I think it also sounds like it was pretty well hidden: sefaria.org/…
– Loewian
yesterday
@Loewian, well, in the corner, anyway. Nothing blocking it, presumably, but it was in the mizbeach's shadow in the very early morning light. Do you mind if I add this point to my answer? Feel free to post one yourself, instead.
– msh210♦
yesterday
2
Your second list item is in Tif'eres Yisra'el on the spot (#50): "דלמא עדיין לא עבד מעולם ולא ידע מקומה".
– WAF
yesterday
2
Also in R. Shimshon Bloch on the spot: "למה אמרו לו 'והרי המחתה וכו'? הא זה בודאי ידע מי שהיה רק פעם אחת שם. אלא ש"מ שיש כהנים דלא עבדו מעולם עבודת הציבור ולכך צריכים להודיע"
– WAF
yesterday
add a comment |
First, Melechet Shelomo makes an allusion to you astonishment
והרי המחתה כל זה היה אומר לו הרי המחתה נתונה בזוית בין הכבש ולמזבח כן פירש המפרש שבדפוס ולא משמע כן מפירוש הראב"ד ז"ל.
I will translate his word in a dialectical way. KUSHIA. "However the shovel..." is a part of what he says him. This is strange because that's a redundant statement. CHANGING OF PSHAT BECAUSE OF THE KUSHIA But according to Raavad’s comment it seems that that isn't, and that is an extended paraphrase by the Mishna narrator.
The Perush you wrote from Tosfot Yom Tov is in Rashi (it is perhaps from Rivan).
והרי המחתה. כל זה היה אומר לו הרי המחתה נתונה בזוית בין הכבש למזבח למערבו של כבש כלומר באלכסון היא נתונה ממוצעת בין כבש למזבח בזוית הכבש היא נתונה אצל מקום שכלה הכבש דהיינו בין הכבש ולמזבח:
Raavad:
והרי מחתה וכו' פירוש שהרי המחתה הוה
Raavad translates VAHARE as SHEHARE, "because."
I don't know if the deduction of Melechet Shlomo is really obvious. But, even assuming that his deduction is not right, we have an answer.
- If one says the two statements, he mentions the importance to avoid touching an utensil, and explains why he address this, the shovel is very easily touched when you stay there (remembering a general din and its relevance for the actual situation).
- If the narrator of the Mishna says the second statement, he explains that they says this because of the risk of touching the shovel (the narrator explains which utensil it at risk).
The commentary of the Rosh holds that they say the two statements and VAHARE is "look there, the place of the shovel." It seems to be a very satisfying translation of the Mishna.
והרי המחתה נתונה. מראין לו מקום של מחתה
There’s no Rashi on Tamid. According to the Raavad, the question doesn’t really start; I’m not sure how anything beyond what you’ve labeled as #1 answers the question. See my comments to the OP.
– DonielF
yesterday
I wrote perhaps rivan
– kouty
yesterday
I dunno if Rivan wrote it, but it certainly isn’t Rashi. Take a look at Artscroll’s introduction to the Masechta.
– DonielF
yesterday
add a comment |
2 Answers
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2 Answers
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I suspect (no source) that it's a combination of a two factors:
No one else was around when he fetched the shovel. (He was the only kohen to go to the other side of the ramp at this time.)
He hadn't done this task often if ever. (Only one person did it per day, so I'd guess most kohanim never did it at all.)
As for the location to deposit the ash (which you mention in the question), that was on the near side of the ramp, so they could remind him when they saw him come down.
I think it also sounds like it was pretty well hidden: sefaria.org/…
– Loewian
yesterday
@Loewian, well, in the corner, anyway. Nothing blocking it, presumably, but it was in the mizbeach's shadow in the very early morning light. Do you mind if I add this point to my answer? Feel free to post one yourself, instead.
– msh210♦
yesterday
2
Your second list item is in Tif'eres Yisra'el on the spot (#50): "דלמא עדיין לא עבד מעולם ולא ידע מקומה".
– WAF
yesterday
2
Also in R. Shimshon Bloch on the spot: "למה אמרו לו 'והרי המחתה וכו'? הא זה בודאי ידע מי שהיה רק פעם אחת שם. אלא ש"מ שיש כהנים דלא עבדו מעולם עבודת הציבור ולכך צריכים להודיע"
– WAF
yesterday
add a comment |
I suspect (no source) that it's a combination of a two factors:
No one else was around when he fetched the shovel. (He was the only kohen to go to the other side of the ramp at this time.)
He hadn't done this task often if ever. (Only one person did it per day, so I'd guess most kohanim never did it at all.)
As for the location to deposit the ash (which you mention in the question), that was on the near side of the ramp, so they could remind him when they saw him come down.
I think it also sounds like it was pretty well hidden: sefaria.org/…
– Loewian
yesterday
@Loewian, well, in the corner, anyway. Nothing blocking it, presumably, but it was in the mizbeach's shadow in the very early morning light. Do you mind if I add this point to my answer? Feel free to post one yourself, instead.
– msh210♦
yesterday
2
Your second list item is in Tif'eres Yisra'el on the spot (#50): "דלמא עדיין לא עבד מעולם ולא ידע מקומה".
– WAF
yesterday
2
Also in R. Shimshon Bloch on the spot: "למה אמרו לו 'והרי המחתה וכו'? הא זה בודאי ידע מי שהיה רק פעם אחת שם. אלא ש"מ שיש כהנים דלא עבדו מעולם עבודת הציבור ולכך צריכים להודיע"
– WAF
yesterday
add a comment |
I suspect (no source) that it's a combination of a two factors:
No one else was around when he fetched the shovel. (He was the only kohen to go to the other side of the ramp at this time.)
He hadn't done this task often if ever. (Only one person did it per day, so I'd guess most kohanim never did it at all.)
As for the location to deposit the ash (which you mention in the question), that was on the near side of the ramp, so they could remind him when they saw him come down.
I suspect (no source) that it's a combination of a two factors:
No one else was around when he fetched the shovel. (He was the only kohen to go to the other side of the ramp at this time.)
He hadn't done this task often if ever. (Only one person did it per day, so I'd guess most kohanim never did it at all.)
As for the location to deposit the ash (which you mention in the question), that was on the near side of the ramp, so they could remind him when they saw him come down.
answered yesterday
msh210♦msh210
48.2k1191289
48.2k1191289
I think it also sounds like it was pretty well hidden: sefaria.org/…
– Loewian
yesterday
@Loewian, well, in the corner, anyway. Nothing blocking it, presumably, but it was in the mizbeach's shadow in the very early morning light. Do you mind if I add this point to my answer? Feel free to post one yourself, instead.
– msh210♦
yesterday
2
Your second list item is in Tif'eres Yisra'el on the spot (#50): "דלמא עדיין לא עבד מעולם ולא ידע מקומה".
– WAF
yesterday
2
Also in R. Shimshon Bloch on the spot: "למה אמרו לו 'והרי המחתה וכו'? הא זה בודאי ידע מי שהיה רק פעם אחת שם. אלא ש"מ שיש כהנים דלא עבדו מעולם עבודת הציבור ולכך צריכים להודיע"
– WAF
yesterday
add a comment |
I think it also sounds like it was pretty well hidden: sefaria.org/…
– Loewian
yesterday
@Loewian, well, in the corner, anyway. Nothing blocking it, presumably, but it was in the mizbeach's shadow in the very early morning light. Do you mind if I add this point to my answer? Feel free to post one yourself, instead.
– msh210♦
yesterday
2
Your second list item is in Tif'eres Yisra'el on the spot (#50): "דלמא עדיין לא עבד מעולם ולא ידע מקומה".
– WAF
yesterday
2
Also in R. Shimshon Bloch on the spot: "למה אמרו לו 'והרי המחתה וכו'? הא זה בודאי ידע מי שהיה רק פעם אחת שם. אלא ש"מ שיש כהנים דלא עבדו מעולם עבודת הציבור ולכך צריכים להודיע"
– WAF
yesterday
I think it also sounds like it was pretty well hidden: sefaria.org/…
– Loewian
yesterday
I think it also sounds like it was pretty well hidden: sefaria.org/…
– Loewian
yesterday
@Loewian, well, in the corner, anyway. Nothing blocking it, presumably, but it was in the mizbeach's shadow in the very early morning light. Do you mind if I add this point to my answer? Feel free to post one yourself, instead.
– msh210♦
yesterday
@Loewian, well, in the corner, anyway. Nothing blocking it, presumably, but it was in the mizbeach's shadow in the very early morning light. Do you mind if I add this point to my answer? Feel free to post one yourself, instead.
– msh210♦
yesterday
2
2
Your second list item is in Tif'eres Yisra'el on the spot (#50): "דלמא עדיין לא עבד מעולם ולא ידע מקומה".
– WAF
yesterday
Your second list item is in Tif'eres Yisra'el on the spot (#50): "דלמא עדיין לא עבד מעולם ולא ידע מקומה".
– WAF
yesterday
2
2
Also in R. Shimshon Bloch on the spot: "למה אמרו לו 'והרי המחתה וכו'? הא זה בודאי ידע מי שהיה רק פעם אחת שם. אלא ש"מ שיש כהנים דלא עבדו מעולם עבודת הציבור ולכך צריכים להודיע"
– WAF
yesterday
Also in R. Shimshon Bloch on the spot: "למה אמרו לו 'והרי המחתה וכו'? הא זה בודאי ידע מי שהיה רק פעם אחת שם. אלא ש"מ שיש כהנים דלא עבדו מעולם עבודת הציבור ולכך צריכים להודיע"
– WAF
yesterday
add a comment |
First, Melechet Shelomo makes an allusion to you astonishment
והרי המחתה כל זה היה אומר לו הרי המחתה נתונה בזוית בין הכבש ולמזבח כן פירש המפרש שבדפוס ולא משמע כן מפירוש הראב"ד ז"ל.
I will translate his word in a dialectical way. KUSHIA. "However the shovel..." is a part of what he says him. This is strange because that's a redundant statement. CHANGING OF PSHAT BECAUSE OF THE KUSHIA But according to Raavad’s comment it seems that that isn't, and that is an extended paraphrase by the Mishna narrator.
The Perush you wrote from Tosfot Yom Tov is in Rashi (it is perhaps from Rivan).
והרי המחתה. כל זה היה אומר לו הרי המחתה נתונה בזוית בין הכבש למזבח למערבו של כבש כלומר באלכסון היא נתונה ממוצעת בין כבש למזבח בזוית הכבש היא נתונה אצל מקום שכלה הכבש דהיינו בין הכבש ולמזבח:
Raavad:
והרי מחתה וכו' פירוש שהרי המחתה הוה
Raavad translates VAHARE as SHEHARE, "because."
I don't know if the deduction of Melechet Shlomo is really obvious. But, even assuming that his deduction is not right, we have an answer.
- If one says the two statements, he mentions the importance to avoid touching an utensil, and explains why he address this, the shovel is very easily touched when you stay there (remembering a general din and its relevance for the actual situation).
- If the narrator of the Mishna says the second statement, he explains that they says this because of the risk of touching the shovel (the narrator explains which utensil it at risk).
The commentary of the Rosh holds that they say the two statements and VAHARE is "look there, the place of the shovel." It seems to be a very satisfying translation of the Mishna.
והרי המחתה נתונה. מראין לו מקום של מחתה
There’s no Rashi on Tamid. According to the Raavad, the question doesn’t really start; I’m not sure how anything beyond what you’ve labeled as #1 answers the question. See my comments to the OP.
– DonielF
yesterday
I wrote perhaps rivan
– kouty
yesterday
I dunno if Rivan wrote it, but it certainly isn’t Rashi. Take a look at Artscroll’s introduction to the Masechta.
– DonielF
yesterday
add a comment |
First, Melechet Shelomo makes an allusion to you astonishment
והרי המחתה כל זה היה אומר לו הרי המחתה נתונה בזוית בין הכבש ולמזבח כן פירש המפרש שבדפוס ולא משמע כן מפירוש הראב"ד ז"ל.
I will translate his word in a dialectical way. KUSHIA. "However the shovel..." is a part of what he says him. This is strange because that's a redundant statement. CHANGING OF PSHAT BECAUSE OF THE KUSHIA But according to Raavad’s comment it seems that that isn't, and that is an extended paraphrase by the Mishna narrator.
The Perush you wrote from Tosfot Yom Tov is in Rashi (it is perhaps from Rivan).
והרי המחתה. כל זה היה אומר לו הרי המחתה נתונה בזוית בין הכבש למזבח למערבו של כבש כלומר באלכסון היא נתונה ממוצעת בין כבש למזבח בזוית הכבש היא נתונה אצל מקום שכלה הכבש דהיינו בין הכבש ולמזבח:
Raavad:
והרי מחתה וכו' פירוש שהרי המחתה הוה
Raavad translates VAHARE as SHEHARE, "because."
I don't know if the deduction of Melechet Shlomo is really obvious. But, even assuming that his deduction is not right, we have an answer.
- If one says the two statements, he mentions the importance to avoid touching an utensil, and explains why he address this, the shovel is very easily touched when you stay there (remembering a general din and its relevance for the actual situation).
- If the narrator of the Mishna says the second statement, he explains that they says this because of the risk of touching the shovel (the narrator explains which utensil it at risk).
The commentary of the Rosh holds that they say the two statements and VAHARE is "look there, the place of the shovel." It seems to be a very satisfying translation of the Mishna.
והרי המחתה נתונה. מראין לו מקום של מחתה
There’s no Rashi on Tamid. According to the Raavad, the question doesn’t really start; I’m not sure how anything beyond what you’ve labeled as #1 answers the question. See my comments to the OP.
– DonielF
yesterday
I wrote perhaps rivan
– kouty
yesterday
I dunno if Rivan wrote it, but it certainly isn’t Rashi. Take a look at Artscroll’s introduction to the Masechta.
– DonielF
yesterday
add a comment |
First, Melechet Shelomo makes an allusion to you astonishment
והרי המחתה כל זה היה אומר לו הרי המחתה נתונה בזוית בין הכבש ולמזבח כן פירש המפרש שבדפוס ולא משמע כן מפירוש הראב"ד ז"ל.
I will translate his word in a dialectical way. KUSHIA. "However the shovel..." is a part of what he says him. This is strange because that's a redundant statement. CHANGING OF PSHAT BECAUSE OF THE KUSHIA But according to Raavad’s comment it seems that that isn't, and that is an extended paraphrase by the Mishna narrator.
The Perush you wrote from Tosfot Yom Tov is in Rashi (it is perhaps from Rivan).
והרי המחתה. כל זה היה אומר לו הרי המחתה נתונה בזוית בין הכבש למזבח למערבו של כבש כלומר באלכסון היא נתונה ממוצעת בין כבש למזבח בזוית הכבש היא נתונה אצל מקום שכלה הכבש דהיינו בין הכבש ולמזבח:
Raavad:
והרי מחתה וכו' פירוש שהרי המחתה הוה
Raavad translates VAHARE as SHEHARE, "because."
I don't know if the deduction of Melechet Shlomo is really obvious. But, even assuming that his deduction is not right, we have an answer.
- If one says the two statements, he mentions the importance to avoid touching an utensil, and explains why he address this, the shovel is very easily touched when you stay there (remembering a general din and its relevance for the actual situation).
- If the narrator of the Mishna says the second statement, he explains that they says this because of the risk of touching the shovel (the narrator explains which utensil it at risk).
The commentary of the Rosh holds that they say the two statements and VAHARE is "look there, the place of the shovel." It seems to be a very satisfying translation of the Mishna.
והרי המחתה נתונה. מראין לו מקום של מחתה
First, Melechet Shelomo makes an allusion to you astonishment
והרי המחתה כל זה היה אומר לו הרי המחתה נתונה בזוית בין הכבש ולמזבח כן פירש המפרש שבדפוס ולא משמע כן מפירוש הראב"ד ז"ל.
I will translate his word in a dialectical way. KUSHIA. "However the shovel..." is a part of what he says him. This is strange because that's a redundant statement. CHANGING OF PSHAT BECAUSE OF THE KUSHIA But according to Raavad’s comment it seems that that isn't, and that is an extended paraphrase by the Mishna narrator.
The Perush you wrote from Tosfot Yom Tov is in Rashi (it is perhaps from Rivan).
והרי המחתה. כל זה היה אומר לו הרי המחתה נתונה בזוית בין הכבש למזבח למערבו של כבש כלומר באלכסון היא נתונה ממוצעת בין כבש למזבח בזוית הכבש היא נתונה אצל מקום שכלה הכבש דהיינו בין הכבש ולמזבח:
Raavad:
והרי מחתה וכו' פירוש שהרי המחתה הוה
Raavad translates VAHARE as SHEHARE, "because."
I don't know if the deduction of Melechet Shlomo is really obvious. But, even assuming that his deduction is not right, we have an answer.
- If one says the two statements, he mentions the importance to avoid touching an utensil, and explains why he address this, the shovel is very easily touched when you stay there (remembering a general din and its relevance for the actual situation).
- If the narrator of the Mishna says the second statement, he explains that they says this because of the risk of touching the shovel (the narrator explains which utensil it at risk).
The commentary of the Rosh holds that they say the two statements and VAHARE is "look there, the place of the shovel." It seems to be a very satisfying translation of the Mishna.
והרי המחתה נתונה. מראין לו מקום של מחתה
edited 15 hours ago
answered yesterday
koutykouty
15.1k31846
15.1k31846
There’s no Rashi on Tamid. According to the Raavad, the question doesn’t really start; I’m not sure how anything beyond what you’ve labeled as #1 answers the question. See my comments to the OP.
– DonielF
yesterday
I wrote perhaps rivan
– kouty
yesterday
I dunno if Rivan wrote it, but it certainly isn’t Rashi. Take a look at Artscroll’s introduction to the Masechta.
– DonielF
yesterday
add a comment |
There’s no Rashi on Tamid. According to the Raavad, the question doesn’t really start; I’m not sure how anything beyond what you’ve labeled as #1 answers the question. See my comments to the OP.
– DonielF
yesterday
I wrote perhaps rivan
– kouty
yesterday
I dunno if Rivan wrote it, but it certainly isn’t Rashi. Take a look at Artscroll’s introduction to the Masechta.
– DonielF
yesterday
There’s no Rashi on Tamid. According to the Raavad, the question doesn’t really start; I’m not sure how anything beyond what you’ve labeled as #1 answers the question. See my comments to the OP.
– DonielF
yesterday
There’s no Rashi on Tamid. According to the Raavad, the question doesn’t really start; I’m not sure how anything beyond what you’ve labeled as #1 answers the question. See my comments to the OP.
– DonielF
yesterday
I wrote perhaps rivan
– kouty
yesterday
I wrote perhaps rivan
– kouty
yesterday
I dunno if Rivan wrote it, but it certainly isn’t Rashi. Take a look at Artscroll’s introduction to the Masechta.
– DonielF
yesterday
I dunno if Rivan wrote it, but it certainly isn’t Rashi. Take a look at Artscroll’s introduction to the Masechta.
– DonielF
yesterday
add a comment |
3
Are you sure the shovel location is part of the quotation and not an explanation for us?
– WAF
yesterday
1
@WAF A few commentaries indicate as much explicitly, and I've yet to see one indicate the contrary. I'll add a footnote to that effect. Also, "וַהֲרֵי" sounds a lot like a continuation of the statement. I guess if you've got an interpretation of this mishna that undermines this question by explaining that line as being part of the Mishna's description, that'd be a valid answer.
– Isaac Moses♦
yesterday
1
Going to the mefarshim to the Mishnah as cited in the pseudo-Gemara on Tamid (28a), Mefaresh learns like you do (והרי המחתה - כל זה היה אומר לו), and the Rosh learns similarly (הרי המחתה נתונה - מראין לו מקומו של מחתה), but the Raavad argues (actually printed after the Masechta concludes, due to how much time he spends throughout the Masechta itself on page 27; והרי המחתה - פירוש שהרי המחתה הוה במקצוע בין כבש למזבח במערבה של כבש).
– DonielF
yesterday
And no, the pseudo-Gemara itself doesn’t say anything on the topic.
– DonielF
yesterday
@DonielF Thanks. An answer based on the Raavad would be worthwhile.
– Isaac Moses♦
yesterday