Why does this relative pronoun not take the case of the noun it is referring to? The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are In Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)How to avoid using the relative pronoun “was” in this sentence?The grammatical case of a “free-standing” noun phrasewhat kind of case does the object in comparative sentence take?Which relative pronoun to use when referring to an entire sentence?Why does “unter” not take dative case in “unter etwas fallen”?Why are the first parts of these sentences not in nominative case?When does ‘trotz’ govern the dative case?What is the right relative pronoun in the following sentence?Why is the adjective ending of the accusative case used in this sentence after »als«?Why dativ case for the verb widerspricht?

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Why does this relative pronoun not take the case of the noun it is referring to?



The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are In
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)How to avoid using the relative pronoun “was” in this sentence?The grammatical case of a “free-standing” noun phrasewhat kind of case does the object in comparative sentence take?Which relative pronoun to use when referring to an entire sentence?Why does “unter” not take dative case in “unter etwas fallen”?Why are the first parts of these sentences not in nominative case?When does ‘trotz’ govern the dative case?What is the right relative pronoun in the following sentence?Why is the adjective ending of the accusative case used in this sentence after »als«?Why dativ case for the verb widerspricht?










8















The University of Michigan gives this sentence on their page about relative pronouns:




Jeden Morgen tritt Jack Nicholson meinen kleinen Hund, der mich immer wütend macht."




The page said the der referred back to meinem kleinen Hund but since Jack Nicholson is in the nominative position of this sentence (meinen kleinen Hund is in the accusative), why wouldn’t der refer back to Jack Nicholson?










share|improve this question



















  • 1





    Semantisch ist das sehr merkwürdig. Wenn Dich der Hund wütend macht - wieso trittst Du ihn nicht selbst? Wieso hast Du überhaupt einen Hund, wenn er Dich wütend macht? Zum Glück hast Du die Quelle verlinkt, sonst hätte ich gedacht, dass es ein Übertragungsfehler ist oder ein miserables Lehrbuch (hatten wir auch schon).

    – user unknown
    Apr 7 at 23:38











  • I second the first comment that the sentence does not sound very good/natural to me: I think the University of Michigan is trying to make their point with a sentence that is highly artificial. The first version they describe would be very natural indeed to express your annoyance about Jack Nicholson kicking your dog, whereas the second version just seems a weird construct from a logical point of view. Even though it is grammatical correct.

    – user2705196
    Apr 8 at 19:08












  • Bad premise. Relative pronouns don't conform to the case of their antecedent. Their case conforms to their function in the relative clause.

    – Kilian Foth
    Apr 9 at 6:17















8















The University of Michigan gives this sentence on their page about relative pronouns:




Jeden Morgen tritt Jack Nicholson meinen kleinen Hund, der mich immer wütend macht."




The page said the der referred back to meinem kleinen Hund but since Jack Nicholson is in the nominative position of this sentence (meinen kleinen Hund is in the accusative), why wouldn’t der refer back to Jack Nicholson?










share|improve this question



















  • 1





    Semantisch ist das sehr merkwürdig. Wenn Dich der Hund wütend macht - wieso trittst Du ihn nicht selbst? Wieso hast Du überhaupt einen Hund, wenn er Dich wütend macht? Zum Glück hast Du die Quelle verlinkt, sonst hätte ich gedacht, dass es ein Übertragungsfehler ist oder ein miserables Lehrbuch (hatten wir auch schon).

    – user unknown
    Apr 7 at 23:38











  • I second the first comment that the sentence does not sound very good/natural to me: I think the University of Michigan is trying to make their point with a sentence that is highly artificial. The first version they describe would be very natural indeed to express your annoyance about Jack Nicholson kicking your dog, whereas the second version just seems a weird construct from a logical point of view. Even though it is grammatical correct.

    – user2705196
    Apr 8 at 19:08












  • Bad premise. Relative pronouns don't conform to the case of their antecedent. Their case conforms to their function in the relative clause.

    – Kilian Foth
    Apr 9 at 6:17













8












8








8








The University of Michigan gives this sentence on their page about relative pronouns:




Jeden Morgen tritt Jack Nicholson meinen kleinen Hund, der mich immer wütend macht."




The page said the der referred back to meinem kleinen Hund but since Jack Nicholson is in the nominative position of this sentence (meinen kleinen Hund is in the accusative), why wouldn’t der refer back to Jack Nicholson?










share|improve this question
















The University of Michigan gives this sentence on their page about relative pronouns:




Jeden Morgen tritt Jack Nicholson meinen kleinen Hund, der mich immer wütend macht."




The page said the der referred back to meinem kleinen Hund but since Jack Nicholson is in the nominative position of this sentence (meinen kleinen Hund is in the accusative), why wouldn’t der refer back to Jack Nicholson?







grammatical-case relative-pronouns






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited Apr 8 at 9:42









Wrzlprmft

18.4k548114




18.4k548114










asked Apr 7 at 17:51









AaronAaron

63317




63317







  • 1





    Semantisch ist das sehr merkwürdig. Wenn Dich der Hund wütend macht - wieso trittst Du ihn nicht selbst? Wieso hast Du überhaupt einen Hund, wenn er Dich wütend macht? Zum Glück hast Du die Quelle verlinkt, sonst hätte ich gedacht, dass es ein Übertragungsfehler ist oder ein miserables Lehrbuch (hatten wir auch schon).

    – user unknown
    Apr 7 at 23:38











  • I second the first comment that the sentence does not sound very good/natural to me: I think the University of Michigan is trying to make their point with a sentence that is highly artificial. The first version they describe would be very natural indeed to express your annoyance about Jack Nicholson kicking your dog, whereas the second version just seems a weird construct from a logical point of view. Even though it is grammatical correct.

    – user2705196
    Apr 8 at 19:08












  • Bad premise. Relative pronouns don't conform to the case of their antecedent. Their case conforms to their function in the relative clause.

    – Kilian Foth
    Apr 9 at 6:17












  • 1





    Semantisch ist das sehr merkwürdig. Wenn Dich der Hund wütend macht - wieso trittst Du ihn nicht selbst? Wieso hast Du überhaupt einen Hund, wenn er Dich wütend macht? Zum Glück hast Du die Quelle verlinkt, sonst hätte ich gedacht, dass es ein Übertragungsfehler ist oder ein miserables Lehrbuch (hatten wir auch schon).

    – user unknown
    Apr 7 at 23:38











  • I second the first comment that the sentence does not sound very good/natural to me: I think the University of Michigan is trying to make their point with a sentence that is highly artificial. The first version they describe would be very natural indeed to express your annoyance about Jack Nicholson kicking your dog, whereas the second version just seems a weird construct from a logical point of view. Even though it is grammatical correct.

    – user2705196
    Apr 8 at 19:08












  • Bad premise. Relative pronouns don't conform to the case of their antecedent. Their case conforms to their function in the relative clause.

    – Kilian Foth
    Apr 9 at 6:17







1




1





Semantisch ist das sehr merkwürdig. Wenn Dich der Hund wütend macht - wieso trittst Du ihn nicht selbst? Wieso hast Du überhaupt einen Hund, wenn er Dich wütend macht? Zum Glück hast Du die Quelle verlinkt, sonst hätte ich gedacht, dass es ein Übertragungsfehler ist oder ein miserables Lehrbuch (hatten wir auch schon).

– user unknown
Apr 7 at 23:38





Semantisch ist das sehr merkwürdig. Wenn Dich der Hund wütend macht - wieso trittst Du ihn nicht selbst? Wieso hast Du überhaupt einen Hund, wenn er Dich wütend macht? Zum Glück hast Du die Quelle verlinkt, sonst hätte ich gedacht, dass es ein Übertragungsfehler ist oder ein miserables Lehrbuch (hatten wir auch schon).

– user unknown
Apr 7 at 23:38













I second the first comment that the sentence does not sound very good/natural to me: I think the University of Michigan is trying to make their point with a sentence that is highly artificial. The first version they describe would be very natural indeed to express your annoyance about Jack Nicholson kicking your dog, whereas the second version just seems a weird construct from a logical point of view. Even though it is grammatical correct.

– user2705196
Apr 8 at 19:08






I second the first comment that the sentence does not sound very good/natural to me: I think the University of Michigan is trying to make their point with a sentence that is highly artificial. The first version they describe would be very natural indeed to express your annoyance about Jack Nicholson kicking your dog, whereas the second version just seems a weird construct from a logical point of view. Even though it is grammatical correct.

– user2705196
Apr 8 at 19:08














Bad premise. Relative pronouns don't conform to the case of their antecedent. Their case conforms to their function in the relative clause.

– Kilian Foth
Apr 9 at 6:17





Bad premise. Relative pronouns don't conform to the case of their antecedent. Their case conforms to their function in the relative clause.

– Kilian Foth
Apr 9 at 6:17










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















21















Jeden Morgen tritt Jack Nicholson meinen kleinen Hund, der mich immer wütend macht.




A relative pronoun must match the gender of its antecedent. In the given sentence, der is masculine and there are therefore two possible antecedents in the matrix clause: the subject Jack Nicholson and the object meinen kleinen Hund. However, the relative clause can only be interpreted as referring to the latter.



Note that this is the case despite the fact that the relative clause has intentionally been phrased in such a way that it is semantically more plausible for Jack Nicholson to be the antecedent (dog-kicking tends to make people angry at the person doing the kicking). This makes the fact that the relative clause cannot have Jack Nicholson as its antecedent all the more salient.



Also note that if we replace masculine Hund by feminine Katze, the only possible antecedent of the relative clause is Jack Nicholson, and yet the relative clause still cannot be interpreted as referring to him. The following sentence is ungrammatical:




*Jeden Morgen tritt Jack Nicholson meine kleine Katze, der mich immer wütend macht.




We can conclude that it is not enough for a relative pronoun to match the gender of its antecedent. The relative clause it introduces must also be positioned correctly. To quote a rule from the same page:




The relative clause always comes right after the noun it is describing.




(But note the exception for "dangling verbs".) Since the relative clause in the original example follows the object, it can only modify the object, i.e. meinen kleinen Hund.



Finally, as far as case is concerned, note that the case of the relative pronoun is completely independent of the case of its antecedent. They occur in different sentences, after all! Let's look at some examples from the section How to choose the correct relative pronoun on this page with supplementary information.




Das ist der Laden [Nom.], den (Acc.) ich liebe.

Wir gehen in den Laden [Acc.], den (Acc.) ich liebe.

Wir sind in dem Laden [Dat.], den (Acc.) ich liebe.

Wer ist der Besitzer des Ladens [Gen.], den (Acc.) ich liebe?



Das ist der Laden [Nom.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde.

Wir gehen in den Laden [Acc.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde.

Wir sind in dem Laden [Dat.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde.

Wer ist der Besitzer des Ladens [Gen.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde?




Observe how the case of the relative pronoun is determined by the verb in the subordinate clause (lieben + accusative in the first four examples, schulden + dative in the others), whereas the case of the antecedent is determined within the matrix clause.






share|improve this answer
































    1














    It's very much the same in English, "John loves Isi, who I just barely like". The grammatical case does not prohibit the construction, as @David said.



    However, it might be more pleasing to continue in the same case, "... meinen Hund, den ...", leaving it in an object position. Although there's no overt preference, it stands to reason. Unless the relative clause restricts or explains the main clause (I mean what the hell, Jack, what was that for, and why would anyone permit that to happen repeatedly), it would be more natural to start a new sentence. Whereas, if restricting the main clause, the dog may well remain in object position, as the dog is not a subject that could be actively responsible for those actions. Phrasing the given relative clause with the dog as an accusative object would be rather difficult though (the passive transposition would use dativ "von dem"). Therefore it's not done and the resulting argument is subjective, not objective, and thus not conclusive. We would naturally have to ask, "what, wait a second, you don't even like the dog and let it be kicked?". Better would be thus, "... meinen Hund, den ich sowieso nicht mag, denn der ärgert mich immer". That's a matter of style more than grammar, and in many cases it is fine either way. But it's a good question.






    share|improve this answer























    • Of course, careful written English will often still use "whom I just barely like", but this is really foreign to many native English speakers while the use of the correct case for the relative pronoun comes naturally to native German speakers.

      – Carsten S
      Apr 8 at 9:56











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    2 Answers
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    2 Answers
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    active

    oldest

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    21















    Jeden Morgen tritt Jack Nicholson meinen kleinen Hund, der mich immer wütend macht.




    A relative pronoun must match the gender of its antecedent. In the given sentence, der is masculine and there are therefore two possible antecedents in the matrix clause: the subject Jack Nicholson and the object meinen kleinen Hund. However, the relative clause can only be interpreted as referring to the latter.



    Note that this is the case despite the fact that the relative clause has intentionally been phrased in such a way that it is semantically more plausible for Jack Nicholson to be the antecedent (dog-kicking tends to make people angry at the person doing the kicking). This makes the fact that the relative clause cannot have Jack Nicholson as its antecedent all the more salient.



    Also note that if we replace masculine Hund by feminine Katze, the only possible antecedent of the relative clause is Jack Nicholson, and yet the relative clause still cannot be interpreted as referring to him. The following sentence is ungrammatical:




    *Jeden Morgen tritt Jack Nicholson meine kleine Katze, der mich immer wütend macht.




    We can conclude that it is not enough for a relative pronoun to match the gender of its antecedent. The relative clause it introduces must also be positioned correctly. To quote a rule from the same page:




    The relative clause always comes right after the noun it is describing.




    (But note the exception for "dangling verbs".) Since the relative clause in the original example follows the object, it can only modify the object, i.e. meinen kleinen Hund.



    Finally, as far as case is concerned, note that the case of the relative pronoun is completely independent of the case of its antecedent. They occur in different sentences, after all! Let's look at some examples from the section How to choose the correct relative pronoun on this page with supplementary information.




    Das ist der Laden [Nom.], den (Acc.) ich liebe.

    Wir gehen in den Laden [Acc.], den (Acc.) ich liebe.

    Wir sind in dem Laden [Dat.], den (Acc.) ich liebe.

    Wer ist der Besitzer des Ladens [Gen.], den (Acc.) ich liebe?



    Das ist der Laden [Nom.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde.

    Wir gehen in den Laden [Acc.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde.

    Wir sind in dem Laden [Dat.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde.

    Wer ist der Besitzer des Ladens [Gen.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde?




    Observe how the case of the relative pronoun is determined by the verb in the subordinate clause (lieben + accusative in the first four examples, schulden + dative in the others), whereas the case of the antecedent is determined within the matrix clause.






    share|improve this answer





























      21















      Jeden Morgen tritt Jack Nicholson meinen kleinen Hund, der mich immer wütend macht.




      A relative pronoun must match the gender of its antecedent. In the given sentence, der is masculine and there are therefore two possible antecedents in the matrix clause: the subject Jack Nicholson and the object meinen kleinen Hund. However, the relative clause can only be interpreted as referring to the latter.



      Note that this is the case despite the fact that the relative clause has intentionally been phrased in such a way that it is semantically more plausible for Jack Nicholson to be the antecedent (dog-kicking tends to make people angry at the person doing the kicking). This makes the fact that the relative clause cannot have Jack Nicholson as its antecedent all the more salient.



      Also note that if we replace masculine Hund by feminine Katze, the only possible antecedent of the relative clause is Jack Nicholson, and yet the relative clause still cannot be interpreted as referring to him. The following sentence is ungrammatical:




      *Jeden Morgen tritt Jack Nicholson meine kleine Katze, der mich immer wütend macht.




      We can conclude that it is not enough for a relative pronoun to match the gender of its antecedent. The relative clause it introduces must also be positioned correctly. To quote a rule from the same page:




      The relative clause always comes right after the noun it is describing.




      (But note the exception for "dangling verbs".) Since the relative clause in the original example follows the object, it can only modify the object, i.e. meinen kleinen Hund.



      Finally, as far as case is concerned, note that the case of the relative pronoun is completely independent of the case of its antecedent. They occur in different sentences, after all! Let's look at some examples from the section How to choose the correct relative pronoun on this page with supplementary information.




      Das ist der Laden [Nom.], den (Acc.) ich liebe.

      Wir gehen in den Laden [Acc.], den (Acc.) ich liebe.

      Wir sind in dem Laden [Dat.], den (Acc.) ich liebe.

      Wer ist der Besitzer des Ladens [Gen.], den (Acc.) ich liebe?



      Das ist der Laden [Nom.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde.

      Wir gehen in den Laden [Acc.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde.

      Wir sind in dem Laden [Dat.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde.

      Wer ist der Besitzer des Ladens [Gen.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde?




      Observe how the case of the relative pronoun is determined by the verb in the subordinate clause (lieben + accusative in the first four examples, schulden + dative in the others), whereas the case of the antecedent is determined within the matrix clause.






      share|improve this answer



























        21












        21








        21








        Jeden Morgen tritt Jack Nicholson meinen kleinen Hund, der mich immer wütend macht.




        A relative pronoun must match the gender of its antecedent. In the given sentence, der is masculine and there are therefore two possible antecedents in the matrix clause: the subject Jack Nicholson and the object meinen kleinen Hund. However, the relative clause can only be interpreted as referring to the latter.



        Note that this is the case despite the fact that the relative clause has intentionally been phrased in such a way that it is semantically more plausible for Jack Nicholson to be the antecedent (dog-kicking tends to make people angry at the person doing the kicking). This makes the fact that the relative clause cannot have Jack Nicholson as its antecedent all the more salient.



        Also note that if we replace masculine Hund by feminine Katze, the only possible antecedent of the relative clause is Jack Nicholson, and yet the relative clause still cannot be interpreted as referring to him. The following sentence is ungrammatical:




        *Jeden Morgen tritt Jack Nicholson meine kleine Katze, der mich immer wütend macht.




        We can conclude that it is not enough for a relative pronoun to match the gender of its antecedent. The relative clause it introduces must also be positioned correctly. To quote a rule from the same page:




        The relative clause always comes right after the noun it is describing.




        (But note the exception for "dangling verbs".) Since the relative clause in the original example follows the object, it can only modify the object, i.e. meinen kleinen Hund.



        Finally, as far as case is concerned, note that the case of the relative pronoun is completely independent of the case of its antecedent. They occur in different sentences, after all! Let's look at some examples from the section How to choose the correct relative pronoun on this page with supplementary information.




        Das ist der Laden [Nom.], den (Acc.) ich liebe.

        Wir gehen in den Laden [Acc.], den (Acc.) ich liebe.

        Wir sind in dem Laden [Dat.], den (Acc.) ich liebe.

        Wer ist der Besitzer des Ladens [Gen.], den (Acc.) ich liebe?



        Das ist der Laden [Nom.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde.

        Wir gehen in den Laden [Acc.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde.

        Wir sind in dem Laden [Dat.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde.

        Wer ist der Besitzer des Ladens [Gen.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde?




        Observe how the case of the relative pronoun is determined by the verb in the subordinate clause (lieben + accusative in the first four examples, schulden + dative in the others), whereas the case of the antecedent is determined within the matrix clause.






        share|improve this answer
















        Jeden Morgen tritt Jack Nicholson meinen kleinen Hund, der mich immer wütend macht.




        A relative pronoun must match the gender of its antecedent. In the given sentence, der is masculine and there are therefore two possible antecedents in the matrix clause: the subject Jack Nicholson and the object meinen kleinen Hund. However, the relative clause can only be interpreted as referring to the latter.



        Note that this is the case despite the fact that the relative clause has intentionally been phrased in such a way that it is semantically more plausible for Jack Nicholson to be the antecedent (dog-kicking tends to make people angry at the person doing the kicking). This makes the fact that the relative clause cannot have Jack Nicholson as its antecedent all the more salient.



        Also note that if we replace masculine Hund by feminine Katze, the only possible antecedent of the relative clause is Jack Nicholson, and yet the relative clause still cannot be interpreted as referring to him. The following sentence is ungrammatical:




        *Jeden Morgen tritt Jack Nicholson meine kleine Katze, der mich immer wütend macht.




        We can conclude that it is not enough for a relative pronoun to match the gender of its antecedent. The relative clause it introduces must also be positioned correctly. To quote a rule from the same page:




        The relative clause always comes right after the noun it is describing.




        (But note the exception for "dangling verbs".) Since the relative clause in the original example follows the object, it can only modify the object, i.e. meinen kleinen Hund.



        Finally, as far as case is concerned, note that the case of the relative pronoun is completely independent of the case of its antecedent. They occur in different sentences, after all! Let's look at some examples from the section How to choose the correct relative pronoun on this page with supplementary information.




        Das ist der Laden [Nom.], den (Acc.) ich liebe.

        Wir gehen in den Laden [Acc.], den (Acc.) ich liebe.

        Wir sind in dem Laden [Dat.], den (Acc.) ich liebe.

        Wer ist der Besitzer des Ladens [Gen.], den (Acc.) ich liebe?



        Das ist der Laden [Nom.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde.

        Wir gehen in den Laden [Acc.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde.

        Wir sind in dem Laden [Dat.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde.

        Wer ist der Besitzer des Ladens [Gen.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde?




        Observe how the case of the relative pronoun is determined by the verb in the subordinate clause (lieben + accusative in the first four examples, schulden + dative in the others), whereas the case of the antecedent is determined within the matrix clause.







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited Apr 8 at 13:04

























        answered Apr 7 at 18:09









        David VogtDavid Vogt

        5,2071332




        5,2071332





















            1














            It's very much the same in English, "John loves Isi, who I just barely like". The grammatical case does not prohibit the construction, as @David said.



            However, it might be more pleasing to continue in the same case, "... meinen Hund, den ...", leaving it in an object position. Although there's no overt preference, it stands to reason. Unless the relative clause restricts or explains the main clause (I mean what the hell, Jack, what was that for, and why would anyone permit that to happen repeatedly), it would be more natural to start a new sentence. Whereas, if restricting the main clause, the dog may well remain in object position, as the dog is not a subject that could be actively responsible for those actions. Phrasing the given relative clause with the dog as an accusative object would be rather difficult though (the passive transposition would use dativ "von dem"). Therefore it's not done and the resulting argument is subjective, not objective, and thus not conclusive. We would naturally have to ask, "what, wait a second, you don't even like the dog and let it be kicked?". Better would be thus, "... meinen Hund, den ich sowieso nicht mag, denn der ärgert mich immer". That's a matter of style more than grammar, and in many cases it is fine either way. But it's a good question.






            share|improve this answer























            • Of course, careful written English will often still use "whom I just barely like", but this is really foreign to many native English speakers while the use of the correct case for the relative pronoun comes naturally to native German speakers.

              – Carsten S
              Apr 8 at 9:56















            1














            It's very much the same in English, "John loves Isi, who I just barely like". The grammatical case does not prohibit the construction, as @David said.



            However, it might be more pleasing to continue in the same case, "... meinen Hund, den ...", leaving it in an object position. Although there's no overt preference, it stands to reason. Unless the relative clause restricts or explains the main clause (I mean what the hell, Jack, what was that for, and why would anyone permit that to happen repeatedly), it would be more natural to start a new sentence. Whereas, if restricting the main clause, the dog may well remain in object position, as the dog is not a subject that could be actively responsible for those actions. Phrasing the given relative clause with the dog as an accusative object would be rather difficult though (the passive transposition would use dativ "von dem"). Therefore it's not done and the resulting argument is subjective, not objective, and thus not conclusive. We would naturally have to ask, "what, wait a second, you don't even like the dog and let it be kicked?". Better would be thus, "... meinen Hund, den ich sowieso nicht mag, denn der ärgert mich immer". That's a matter of style more than grammar, and in many cases it is fine either way. But it's a good question.






            share|improve this answer























            • Of course, careful written English will often still use "whom I just barely like", but this is really foreign to many native English speakers while the use of the correct case for the relative pronoun comes naturally to native German speakers.

              – Carsten S
              Apr 8 at 9:56













            1












            1








            1







            It's very much the same in English, "John loves Isi, who I just barely like". The grammatical case does not prohibit the construction, as @David said.



            However, it might be more pleasing to continue in the same case, "... meinen Hund, den ...", leaving it in an object position. Although there's no overt preference, it stands to reason. Unless the relative clause restricts or explains the main clause (I mean what the hell, Jack, what was that for, and why would anyone permit that to happen repeatedly), it would be more natural to start a new sentence. Whereas, if restricting the main clause, the dog may well remain in object position, as the dog is not a subject that could be actively responsible for those actions. Phrasing the given relative clause with the dog as an accusative object would be rather difficult though (the passive transposition would use dativ "von dem"). Therefore it's not done and the resulting argument is subjective, not objective, and thus not conclusive. We would naturally have to ask, "what, wait a second, you don't even like the dog and let it be kicked?". Better would be thus, "... meinen Hund, den ich sowieso nicht mag, denn der ärgert mich immer". That's a matter of style more than grammar, and in many cases it is fine either way. But it's a good question.






            share|improve this answer













            It's very much the same in English, "John loves Isi, who I just barely like". The grammatical case does not prohibit the construction, as @David said.



            However, it might be more pleasing to continue in the same case, "... meinen Hund, den ...", leaving it in an object position. Although there's no overt preference, it stands to reason. Unless the relative clause restricts or explains the main clause (I mean what the hell, Jack, what was that for, and why would anyone permit that to happen repeatedly), it would be more natural to start a new sentence. Whereas, if restricting the main clause, the dog may well remain in object position, as the dog is not a subject that could be actively responsible for those actions. Phrasing the given relative clause with the dog as an accusative object would be rather difficult though (the passive transposition would use dativ "von dem"). Therefore it's not done and the resulting argument is subjective, not objective, and thus not conclusive. We would naturally have to ask, "what, wait a second, you don't even like the dog and let it be kicked?". Better would be thus, "... meinen Hund, den ich sowieso nicht mag, denn der ärgert mich immer". That's a matter of style more than grammar, and in many cases it is fine either way. But it's a good question.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered Apr 8 at 6:50









            vectoryvectory

            49610




            49610












            • Of course, careful written English will often still use "whom I just barely like", but this is really foreign to many native English speakers while the use of the correct case for the relative pronoun comes naturally to native German speakers.

              – Carsten S
              Apr 8 at 9:56

















            • Of course, careful written English will often still use "whom I just barely like", but this is really foreign to many native English speakers while the use of the correct case for the relative pronoun comes naturally to native German speakers.

              – Carsten S
              Apr 8 at 9:56
















            Of course, careful written English will often still use "whom I just barely like", but this is really foreign to many native English speakers while the use of the correct case for the relative pronoun comes naturally to native German speakers.

            – Carsten S
            Apr 8 at 9:56





            Of course, careful written English will often still use "whom I just barely like", but this is really foreign to many native English speakers while the use of the correct case for the relative pronoun comes naturally to native German speakers.

            – Carsten S
            Apr 8 at 9:56

















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