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Why is it a bad idea to hire a hitman to eliminate most corrupt politicians?
Why has the perception of corruption in China increased suddenly?Why does the USDA handle the food pyramid?Why do politicians make so much money?Outside of Iceland's PM, did the Panama Papers have any meaningful effect on high level politicians?Why are states purportedly performing assassinations with chemical and radioactive weapons?Why is Nicolas Sarkozy charged with corruption over suspected Kadhafi financing after five years?Why has Israel not expelled Russian diplomats in response to the Skripal poisoning?What are some minimum indicators which tell us that a government is corrupt?Why raise so much fuss about the Skripal poisoning?Why is the Egyptian government building a new capital instead of modernizing and fixing Cairo?
According to an article I read recently (I could not find it though), the easiest way to take down a big authority is by cutting the head - meaning the uppermost level of control of that authority - and causing enough chaos to be able to claim that authority yourself.
What if whenever politicians became too shameless in their corruption schemes, someone hired a hitman that eliminates a few important figures, basically sending a message that most of the people are thinking: "We can see what you're doing and we won't just stay and do nothing"? In my very naive opinion, this will send a warning message to any future person occupying that role that they shouldn't fall into corruption schemes or at least not as much. I understand that in today's world the second part - claiming the authority - is complex or impossible, but it's not important. The goal of this is only sending the warning message.
I know that my point of view is very naive, but I'd like to read some ideas about why this won't work.
P.S.: I know this is a global community, so a little background might be helpful - this is coming from someone in Eastern Europe, where life standard is kind of low compared to Western Europe and politicians are more corrupt based on my biased opinion.
corruption assassinations
New contributor
|
show 2 more comments
According to an article I read recently (I could not find it though), the easiest way to take down a big authority is by cutting the head - meaning the uppermost level of control of that authority - and causing enough chaos to be able to claim that authority yourself.
What if whenever politicians became too shameless in their corruption schemes, someone hired a hitman that eliminates a few important figures, basically sending a message that most of the people are thinking: "We can see what you're doing and we won't just stay and do nothing"? In my very naive opinion, this will send a warning message to any future person occupying that role that they shouldn't fall into corruption schemes or at least not as much. I understand that in today's world the second part - claiming the authority - is complex or impossible, but it's not important. The goal of this is only sending the warning message.
I know that my point of view is very naive, but I'd like to read some ideas about why this won't work.
P.S.: I know this is a global community, so a little background might be helpful - this is coming from someone in Eastern Europe, where life standard is kind of low compared to Western Europe and politicians are more corrupt based on my biased opinion.
corruption assassinations
New contributor
@JJJ: I've rolled back your title edit. The question was not simply asking about incentives (perverse or otherwise). As I understood it, it's mostly about (bad/unintended) consequences of this course of action.
– Fizz
Apr 2 at 10:20
38
I understand that this is an academic question, but could you reword it to make it very clear that you're not in any way suggesting that this is a valid solution or good idea? There are too many people who would like to take out world leaders today, and they don't need encouragement.
– bob
Apr 2 at 15:50
5
Lots of comments deleted. Please don't answer the question in comments. For more information on what comments should and should not be used for, please review the help article about the commenting privilege.
– Philipp♦
Apr 2 at 16:39
1
I have heard on multiple occasions about this idea and I think this is on-topic, since it is clearly related to how some perceive politics. Also the most voted answers explain very well why this is a terrible idea and they are useful for future readers (one of the goals of SE network),
– Alexei
yesterday
Isn't this an ethical question rather than political? Almost any political system will have strong rules against harming the people who write the rules, for obvious reasons, but you seem to be interested in extra-legal solutions.
– Jon of All Trades
yesterday
|
show 2 more comments
According to an article I read recently (I could not find it though), the easiest way to take down a big authority is by cutting the head - meaning the uppermost level of control of that authority - and causing enough chaos to be able to claim that authority yourself.
What if whenever politicians became too shameless in their corruption schemes, someone hired a hitman that eliminates a few important figures, basically sending a message that most of the people are thinking: "We can see what you're doing and we won't just stay and do nothing"? In my very naive opinion, this will send a warning message to any future person occupying that role that they shouldn't fall into corruption schemes or at least not as much. I understand that in today's world the second part - claiming the authority - is complex or impossible, but it's not important. The goal of this is only sending the warning message.
I know that my point of view is very naive, but I'd like to read some ideas about why this won't work.
P.S.: I know this is a global community, so a little background might be helpful - this is coming from someone in Eastern Europe, where life standard is kind of low compared to Western Europe and politicians are more corrupt based on my biased opinion.
corruption assassinations
New contributor
According to an article I read recently (I could not find it though), the easiest way to take down a big authority is by cutting the head - meaning the uppermost level of control of that authority - and causing enough chaos to be able to claim that authority yourself.
What if whenever politicians became too shameless in their corruption schemes, someone hired a hitman that eliminates a few important figures, basically sending a message that most of the people are thinking: "We can see what you're doing and we won't just stay and do nothing"? In my very naive opinion, this will send a warning message to any future person occupying that role that they shouldn't fall into corruption schemes or at least not as much. I understand that in today's world the second part - claiming the authority - is complex or impossible, but it's not important. The goal of this is only sending the warning message.
I know that my point of view is very naive, but I'd like to read some ideas about why this won't work.
P.S.: I know this is a global community, so a little background might be helpful - this is coming from someone in Eastern Europe, where life standard is kind of low compared to Western Europe and politicians are more corrupt based on my biased opinion.
corruption assassinations
corruption assassinations
New contributor
New contributor
edited Apr 2 at 12:05
yoozer8
3023517
3023517
New contributor
asked Apr 2 at 9:00
Angel VenchevAngel Venchev
403127
403127
New contributor
New contributor
@JJJ: I've rolled back your title edit. The question was not simply asking about incentives (perverse or otherwise). As I understood it, it's mostly about (bad/unintended) consequences of this course of action.
– Fizz
Apr 2 at 10:20
38
I understand that this is an academic question, but could you reword it to make it very clear that you're not in any way suggesting that this is a valid solution or good idea? There are too many people who would like to take out world leaders today, and they don't need encouragement.
– bob
Apr 2 at 15:50
5
Lots of comments deleted. Please don't answer the question in comments. For more information on what comments should and should not be used for, please review the help article about the commenting privilege.
– Philipp♦
Apr 2 at 16:39
1
I have heard on multiple occasions about this idea and I think this is on-topic, since it is clearly related to how some perceive politics. Also the most voted answers explain very well why this is a terrible idea and they are useful for future readers (one of the goals of SE network),
– Alexei
yesterday
Isn't this an ethical question rather than political? Almost any political system will have strong rules against harming the people who write the rules, for obvious reasons, but you seem to be interested in extra-legal solutions.
– Jon of All Trades
yesterday
|
show 2 more comments
@JJJ: I've rolled back your title edit. The question was not simply asking about incentives (perverse or otherwise). As I understood it, it's mostly about (bad/unintended) consequences of this course of action.
– Fizz
Apr 2 at 10:20
38
I understand that this is an academic question, but could you reword it to make it very clear that you're not in any way suggesting that this is a valid solution or good idea? There are too many people who would like to take out world leaders today, and they don't need encouragement.
– bob
Apr 2 at 15:50
5
Lots of comments deleted. Please don't answer the question in comments. For more information on what comments should and should not be used for, please review the help article about the commenting privilege.
– Philipp♦
Apr 2 at 16:39
1
I have heard on multiple occasions about this idea and I think this is on-topic, since it is clearly related to how some perceive politics. Also the most voted answers explain very well why this is a terrible idea and they are useful for future readers (one of the goals of SE network),
– Alexei
yesterday
Isn't this an ethical question rather than political? Almost any political system will have strong rules against harming the people who write the rules, for obvious reasons, but you seem to be interested in extra-legal solutions.
– Jon of All Trades
yesterday
@JJJ: I've rolled back your title edit. The question was not simply asking about incentives (perverse or otherwise). As I understood it, it's mostly about (bad/unintended) consequences of this course of action.
– Fizz
Apr 2 at 10:20
@JJJ: I've rolled back your title edit. The question was not simply asking about incentives (perverse or otherwise). As I understood it, it's mostly about (bad/unintended) consequences of this course of action.
– Fizz
Apr 2 at 10:20
38
38
I understand that this is an academic question, but could you reword it to make it very clear that you're not in any way suggesting that this is a valid solution or good idea? There are too many people who would like to take out world leaders today, and they don't need encouragement.
– bob
Apr 2 at 15:50
I understand that this is an academic question, but could you reword it to make it very clear that you're not in any way suggesting that this is a valid solution or good idea? There are too many people who would like to take out world leaders today, and they don't need encouragement.
– bob
Apr 2 at 15:50
5
5
Lots of comments deleted. Please don't answer the question in comments. For more information on what comments should and should not be used for, please review the help article about the commenting privilege.
– Philipp♦
Apr 2 at 16:39
Lots of comments deleted. Please don't answer the question in comments. For more information on what comments should and should not be used for, please review the help article about the commenting privilege.
– Philipp♦
Apr 2 at 16:39
1
1
I have heard on multiple occasions about this idea and I think this is on-topic, since it is clearly related to how some perceive politics. Also the most voted answers explain very well why this is a terrible idea and they are useful for future readers (one of the goals of SE network),
– Alexei
yesterday
I have heard on multiple occasions about this idea and I think this is on-topic, since it is clearly related to how some perceive politics. Also the most voted answers explain very well why this is a terrible idea and they are useful for future readers (one of the goals of SE network),
– Alexei
yesterday
Isn't this an ethical question rather than political? Almost any political system will have strong rules against harming the people who write the rules, for obvious reasons, but you seem to be interested in extra-legal solutions.
– Jon of All Trades
yesterday
Isn't this an ethical question rather than political? Almost any political system will have strong rules against harming the people who write the rules, for obvious reasons, but you seem to be interested in extra-legal solutions.
– Jon of All Trades
yesterday
|
show 2 more comments
15 Answers
15
active
oldest
votes
Basically because your idea (assassination of corrupt politician) undermines rather than reinforces the rule of law. Usually the definition of corruption includes some kind of illegal activity. Otherwise it's just stuff you don't like for personal moral reasons. And if everyone started to use assasination to solve their moral differences... the basis of the (modern) state as the sole authority for violence would cease to exist.
And given that it's apparently a fairly popular idea, in some movies at least, here's some similar commentary on the idea:
The violence could worsen the problem of corruption,” says Michael Johnston, a political scientist and professor at Colgate University. “It would legitimate violent action from the persecuted politicians, and encourage a hunt for the suspects. That is what will happen with Rodrigo Duterte’s tactics in the Philippines,” he explains, referring to the Philippine president who wishes to distribute 42 thousand weapons to ordinary citizens, especially community leaders, so they can go around the country killing people involved with any form of illicit activities, especially drug trafficking.
In such a scenario, a climate similar to that of Joseph Stalin’s Soviet Union would be implemented: any accusation, no matter how little justified by concrete evidence, would mean a death penalty or exile. And the dead corrupt politicians would quickly be replaced by other ones – as it already happens with members of the organized crime.
And since that part doesn't get developed with any examples there, South Africa is perhaps an example where the whistleblowers are the ones that usually end up assassinated, nowadays.
Political assassinations are rising sharply in South Africa, threatening the stability of hard-hit parts of the country and imperiling Mr. Mandela’s dream of a unified, democratic nation.
But unlike much of the political violence that upended the country in the 1990s, the recent killings are not being driven by vicious battles between rival political parties.
Quite the opposite: In most cases, A.N.C. officials are killing one another, hiring professional hit men to eliminate fellow party members in an all-or-nothing fight over money, turf and power, A.N.C. officials say. [...]
The recent assassinations cover a wide range of personal and political feuds. Some victims were A.N.C. officials who became targets after exposing or denouncing corruption within the party. Others fell in internal battles for lucrative posts.
Encouraging assassination as a legitimate political tool can easily lead to that since who has more money to pay hitmen?
And to reinforce this idea, going back to Duterte, here's a quote from him:
Rodrigo Duterte has warned journalists in the Philippines that they are legitimate targets for assassination if they do wrong, in the President-elect’s latest controversial comments ahead of being sworn into office later this month.
Duterte was asked during a press conference Tuesday how he would address the country’s high murder rate for journalists, reports Agence France-Presse. “Just because you’re a journalist you are not exempted from assassination, if you’re a son of a bitch,” he replied.
Interestingly, Duterte was apparently referring to (or perhaps reducing the problem to) the rather complex case of Jun Pala, who apparently himself was linked to a vigilante group that exposed and allegedly assassinated some [corrupt] politicians.
And since this came up several times in the comments, here's a definition(s) primer:
“Corruption” is a term whose meaning shifts with the speaker. It can describe the
corruption of the young from watching violence on television or refer to political
decisions that provide narrow benefits to one’s constituents in the form, say, of a new
road through the district. In short, speakers use the term to cover a range of actions that
they find undesirable. Because my topic includes both corruption and poor governance, I
omit both morally corrupting activities, on the one hand, and run-of-the-mill
constituency-based politics, on the other. I use the common definition of corruption as the
“misuse of public power for private or political gain,” recognizing that “misuse” must be
defined in terms of some standard. Many corrupt activities under this definition are illegal
in most countries—for example, paying and receiving bribes, fraud, embezzlement, self-dealing, conflicts of interest, and providing a quid pro quo in return for campaign gifts.
However, part of the policy debate turns on where to draw the legal line and how to
control borderline phenomena, such as conflicts of interest, which many political systems
fail to regulate. [...] one of the most important debates turns on the issue
of “state capture” or the problem of creating open democratic/market societies in states
where a narrow elite has a disproportionate influence on state policy. In those countries
outright bribery may be low, but the system is riddled with special interest deals that
favor the few over the many.
In some sense, plain-old tyranny (which several comments addressed) is an extreme form of state capture. (When there aren't even pretenses anymore.)
State capture is of course somewhat different than "conventional" corruption because there's (usually widespread) institutional and legislative failure. Whether peaceful reform or violent revolution is the appropriate solution for such a state of affairs is a somewhat related but sufficiently different question, so I won't attempt to address that here.
76
Apart from the points of the answer, the whole setup of the idea is rather naive. The corrupt politicians stand in power because they have a power base that supports them, even if they are corrupt. The idea that the problems of a country are the fault of a single man is rather tempting as it provides an easy solution, but completely false and it is mostly wishful thinking and scapegoating.
– SJuan76
Apr 2 at 9:19
7
@owjburnham: overthrow doesn't necessarily mean killing.
– Fizz
Apr 2 at 9:33
22
@AngelVenchev But who decides what's a "very extreme situation"? There are many political assassinations where the assassin had a motive most people would consider a very minor issue or even no issue at all. But the assassin obviously considered those reasons "extreme" enough to commit a murder they will very likely get caught for. There are a lot of political extremists who do not realize they are extremists.
– Philipp♦
Apr 2 at 11:02
10
@FrankCedeno: If we're talking revolutions here, we're probably in a different ball game. As I understood this question it's about mundane corruption. You're welcome to add another answer. Ferdinand was probably not corrupt according to the laws of his time...
– Fizz
Apr 2 at 12:17
7
@TKK When was this demonstrated?
– DonFusili
yesterday
|
show 11 more comments
Interestingly, avoiding this is one of the reasons that the United States Constitution provides means for legal impeachment of the president.
Dr. Franklin was for retaining the clause [on impeachment], as favorable to the executive. History furnishes one example only of a first magistrate being formally brought to public justice. Every body cried out against this as unconstitutional. What was the practice before this, in cases where the chief magistrate rendered himself obnoxious? Why, recourse was had to assassination, in which he was not only deprived of his life, but of the opportunity of vindicating his character. It would be the best way, therefore, to provide in the Constitution for the regular punishment of the executive, where his misconduct should deserve it, and for his honorable acquittal, where he should be unjustly accused
BENJAMIN FRANKLIN, debates in the Constitutional Convention, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, July 20, 1787.—James Madison, Debates on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution, ed. Jonathan Elliot, vol. 5, pp. 340–41 (1845).
In addition to the practical and moral reasons which have been raised by other answers, assassination deprives the targeted politician of the chance to clear their name and it deprives the public of the chance to learn, in a fair and just manner, if the charges were justified or not.
add a comment |
The question is whether the politician is corrupt or the whole society is corrupt. Often most corrupt politician belongs to corrupt societies. Therefore, if you kill a corrupt politician, another corrupt will take its place.
Same thing happens with drug traffic. Whenever a cartel falls, another one takes control of the vacuum left, because the demand of drugs does not fall because a cartel in power is gone.
If people accept death of the corrupt politician, maybe few people would like to be polician, but the ones who take that path would be more corrupt than ever, because they must accept the risk of being a politician. Hence, they need to profit faster to take the risk.
What would happen with your hitman? if society accept that death, then your hitman would be hired to kill other people, because death by assasination would be nice for many.
This seems like a Perfect Solution Fallacy. It's certainly true that assassinating a single bad actor, whether a politician or a mafia boss, won't solve everything. However, it's also true that adding a significant risk of death makes corruption less appealing, and should discourage abuse to some extent. It's not obvious that such a situation would encourage more corruption, because raking in dirty cash quickly will generally be more obvious - and more likely to attract acute lead poisoning.
– Jon of All Trades
yesterday
2
@JonofAllTrades I think corruption would be in the same ballpark as other crimes in that it is not the severity of punishment that deters, but rather unavoidability. Note that as soon as you start assassination game, it won't matter of you are corrupt, just if your hitman is faster than the one who expects to be paid for you.
– Gnudiff
yesterday
add a comment |
Suppose, as per the premise of the question, that the public is fond of sponsoring assassinations. A clever corrupt politician could use that to his own advantage, and the nation's detriment:
A politician could weaponize the state's propaganda system to mold public resentment toward prominent reformers, so that the gullible public could be wrongly persuaded to fund assassins to murder the reformers themselves.
Organized assassination markets would justify using emergency powers to create a temporary, or even permanent, police state, which could be used to crush such markets, and oppress and murder reformers.
Since it's an assassination market system, it would favor buyers with more money. So a wealthy criminal would have money to spend, whereas the honest poor would not. Therefore such a market would tend to best reward assassins employed by the ruthlessly wealthy to murder reformers.
3
+1. Your first bullet-point, as I'm sure you know, is not even all that theoretical; see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-corruption_campaign_under_Xi_Jinping#Critical_analysis for (what many have argued to be) a similar case in the real world.
– ruakh
Apr 3 at 0:54
2
Your first bullet point: Or create public resentment towards a minority, or the press, or other side of the political spectrum. And then the gullible become assassins.
– mahboudz
yesterday
add a comment |
Apart from whether your approach would be conducive to justice or a better political system or even just any improvement whatsoever — it will not work.
Do you think you are the first one who has the idea to kill the president or other politicians? They are quite well protected, and after the first few incidents the protection will be watertight.
But the most important obstacle to your strategy is that a change in leadership in a democracy does not have a great impact.1 In fact, this is a simple and effective litmus test for a true democracy: Does a change in leadership trigger a systemic crisis? We don't know what will happen in North Korea when Kim-Jong un dies in office(s). By contrast we know quite exactly what will happen in the U.S. when Trump dies in office: The vice president will become president.2Nothing much will happen, and certainly no systemic crisis.
A system with properly working political institutions and true elections will simply replace the leader according to the lawful rules and procedures, and go on with business.
If you want a quip: In a democracy, functions are filled with people. In a dictatorship, people are filled with functions.
The politicians have been voted into office by free elections; they are in office because many people wanted them to be. What makes you think the next election will suddenly result in a fundamentally different leadership? To change the general make-up of the political class, you must change the outcomes of elections; to do that, you need to change public opinion.
1 Whether through violence or election. The latter has been a sometimes painful experience for members of either big political camp after their respective candidate had become president. A president is less important than some people, including the presidents themselves sometimes, tend to think. Cynics say that's because the real power lies elsewhere anyway; I'd argue that the balance of power and the legal framework limits what can be done by an activist president; and when one steps back one sees that the positions are not very extreme to begin with. That's not too surprising given that a large part of the population voted for them.
2 Thanks to nasch for the correction.
3
The 25th amendment states "In case of the removal of the President from office or of his death or resignation, the Vice President shall become President." So the VP becomes not acting president, but president. And I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "a new president will be elected" but there is no special election held after the President's death. The next scheduled election happens as normal, and this could result in the re-election of the person who assumed the presidency.
– nasch
Apr 2 at 21:27
@nasch i.e. things proceed basically how they would have with the predecessor
– Caleth
Apr 2 at 23:06
Maybe, maybe not, it's entirely up to the new president.
– nasch
2 days ago
"they are in office because many people wanted them to be" No, because there are often only 2 choices both I would never vote for, but a decision has to be made. The people want an honest person, but are only give 2 choices neither of which has to be good, honest, or etc. Anyone else who runs doesn't stand a chance because they don't have the financial backing to get noticed so people vote for them.
– cybernard
2 days ago
@cybernard Just because you specifically do not like the two or so choices available does not mean there are not many other people who do like at least one of those choices. (Whether those choices are actually suitable candidates, viewed objectively, is a separate matter, of course.)
– JAB
yesterday
add a comment |
Letting aside the ethics, who gets to decide who is corrupt?
Taking the USA's political state since 2015-2016, i.e. the last POTUS election we have:
- a large proportion of US voters who believe Hillary Clinton is corrupt.
- a large proportion of US voters who believe Donald Trump is corrupt.
It could be that they are both corrupt. Or that neither is corrupt.
What would be an objective way to determine who is worthy or not? How would it fit with notions like rule of law or institutions?
What if the hit man's employer are not so much honest citizens as, say gangsters wanting to throttle an excessive anti-corruption drive? What if a prime minister/president, aware of the risks, launches very aggressive police actions, essentially to defend themselves? What if, after a successful assassination of a part-popular, but divisive, politician, his supporters riot?
Unless, of course, this decision is taken at a governmental level in which case democracies have all sorts of way to impeach or indicate a loss of confidence in a government and don't need this suggestion. Which smacks of vigilante justice.
Couple a legislated removal from office with fact-driven adversarial prosecutions of the supposed corruption afterwards and you have most of the advantages of your suggestion, in an entirely legal manner.
I'm not sure how bringing up gangsters is relevant in a discussion on well-intentioned morality or lack thereof of an act; gangsters have people bad for their business removed anyway, for selfish reasons, it's a red herring.
– millimoose
2 days ago
3
It's not a red herring at all. It's exactly the same violence if I send my boys to rub you out, or I outspend you in court. Men with guns will show up to coerce you either way. Don't like that? Pay some men with guns to defend you. Problem is that during the evaluation process, the area is not really attractive for economic growth. Also, you cannot avoid "gangsters" in this scenario, uncertain times are how 'gangsters' become respected citizens. Al Capone's syphilis might be the difference between him and Joe Kennedy.
– chiggsy
2 days ago
3
@millimoose How is hitman unrelated to gangster again? Plus, some other posters made the same link to the most natural customers of hitmen are people in the crime scene. There have been a number of cases over time where inconvenient public figures, often journalists, but sometimes politicians, have been rubbed out by the mob, mostly in countries with immature democratic institutions. And, in a context of accepted political assassinations, would mob hits not be less obvious? So, what's your point, exactly?
– Italian Philosopher
yesterday
add a comment |
The question is titled:
Why is it a bad idea to hire a hitman [to kill corrupt] politicians?
Well, from a moral standpoint, it's wrong. It depends on your yardstick for corruption, but let's say as you imply it's some run of the mill embezzling/defruading the state.
You've implied a benchmark of:
whenever politicians became too shameless in their corruption schemes,
..implying financial misconduct.
That's an abuse of power and generally considering to be "wrong" (in the ethical sense). However, if we look at this on the basis of first principles: If I steal ten dollars from you, and you then come and kill me (hiring someone is more or the less ethically the same thing), who's committed the greater wrong, me or you?
I think you'd be hard pressed to find someonewho argues that stealing money is ethically worse than killing someone - it's disproportionate. The key attribute of retributive jsutice is that it is proportionate. To quote Wikipedia:
Retributive justice is a theory of justice that holds that the best
response to a crime is a punishment proportional to the offense,
inflicted because the offender deserves the punishment. Prevention of
future crimes (deterrence) or rehabilitation of the offender are not
considered in determining such punishments. The theory holds that when
an offender breaks the law, justice requires that he or she suffer in
return. Retribution is different from revenge because retributive
justice is directed only at wrongs, has inherent limits, is not
personal and involves no pleasure at the suffering of others[1] and
employs procedural standards.[2][3] Classical texts advocating the
retributive view include De Legibus (1st century BC), Kant's Science
of Right[4] (1790), and Hegel's Philosophy of Right[5] (1821).
From an ethical standpoint, it seems evident that hiring a hitman to kill a corrupt politician is both unjust and unethical - to a certain degree. There's also an inherent problem with your criterion:
too shameless in their corruption schemes
Your benchmark here is how visible this corruption is, or more precisely, how corrupt the individual is perceived to be. This is problematic. Let's discuss the ethical reasons first, then move on to why pragmatically this is even worse.
So the next question is: How shameless is "too shameless" ? What amount of money or kind of corruption schemes are objectively worth "sending a message over"? If, as I think you will agree, stealing ten dollars from the government not worth hiring a hitman over, what figure is ? Ten thousand dollars, one hundred thousand? What price do you put on a human life? Who gets to deem that the politician is too shameless?
The problem with this unilateral approach is that a lot of people might not agree with your methods, or your reasoning. Look at Lee Harvey Oswald, John Wilkes Booth or Mark David Chapman: Complete nutters the lot of them. How do you verify when you embark on this course of action that you yourself aren't just, yourself, a complete nutter? Unlike a functioning judicial process, there's no due process or checks and balances. Looking at today's political climate, there are probably a lot of people who would feel justified in taking that action into their own hands, even though, their criterion for action might not meet the same standards as yours.
Whilst I am no Trump fan, I certainly don't believe he should be assassinated. There are plenty of people in the U.S who do and I am certainly not comfortable with their ethical standards because if those same principles were applied, they would feel justified in killing a lot of people I would consider innocent, or at least not worthy of summary extrajudicial execution.
Can you imagine what it would be like if every SJW, right wing blogger and Youtube commenter felt they were justified in taking the lives of people who had transgressed their imaginary rulebook?
We need to also ask whilst on the topic of personal culpability, what is a politician? At the most abstract, I submit it's somebody who influences or attempts to influence the body politic. So by killing someone you perceive to be corrupt, or a lizard person, or whatever, you are in fact attempting to influence the political process. So if you hire a hitman to kill whoever, isn't somebody else justified in viewing you as corrupt and hiring a hitman to take you out?
These are just some quick moral arguments against it off the top off my head. There's a far greater problem with this notion. It doesn't really work.
First of all, let's examine your proposition:
someone hired a hitman that eliminates a few important figures,
basically sending a message that most of the people are thinking: "We
can see what you're doing and we won't just stay and do nothing"? In
my very naive opinion, this will send a warning message to any future
person occupying that role that they shouldn't fall into corruption
schemes or at least not as much.
Well, for starters, I don't think the politician in question will be falling into any corruption schemes anymore, assuming that the hitman is successful. So what message are you really sending? And to whom? The guy's dead.
So how are you getting your message across? No doubt if the politician is visibly corrupt enough, people might suspect it had something to do with it but there's no clear cut guarantee. Declaring some manifesto alongside it only increases your risk of getting caught.
Aside from your hitman probably having something to say about that; what guarantee do you have that either this corrupt cabal or the general populace is going to take you seriously? It's a nice daydream, but I don't think it really works out that way in practice.
There's another fatal flaw with your plan: Darwinism.
You see, by your stated criterion, you're only targeting the most visibly corrupt politicians. Let's assume you have a lot of money and a really good hitman. What happens in the long run? You don't kill all the corrupt politicians, you just kill the visible, and, by extension, the inept ones. That just ends up leaving the ones who excel at being corrupt. This leaves you worse off than where you started. This happens a lot in nature.
For example, we've possessed the genetic weaponry necessary to wipe out the malarial mosquito for sometime. The reason why we haven't done it, is that even though malaria kills a lot of people is that we don't know exactly what else it kills and what effects might result.
We might inadvertantly lift the lid on another disease that's even worse. One of these politicians might be corrupt but be keeping someone even worse from rising up the food-chain.
You see, for politicians to become so shameless unaccountable to their electorate, it doesn't just imply that they themselves have taken advantage of the government. What it usually means is that the institutions of government - the complex systems and ecosystems of government and governance have themselves broken down. It's quite easy for people to point to a divisive figure like say, Donald Trump, and say "It's all his fault" but the reality is that these people are the symptoms of the problem, not the cause.
The United States has had real trouble just functioning for a long time, and its democratic institutions are in many ways fundamentally broken. The causes of this are legion, but can basically be summed up with their culture and history has directly determined the outcome they have right now. Likewise, the failure of institutions and democracy in Hungary or Poland or Bulgaria (or wherever you are) aren't the result of just one person but a systemic failure. You can't cure this with a bullet - people have tried.
This leads to my last point: Unintended consequences.
We don't know what forces might be unleashed by a single assassination. Look at Archduke Ferdinand. He was killed because he was a symbol of the Austro-Hungarian domination of the Balkans. Princip believed that by assassinating him he was furthering the course of Serbian freedom. Ironically Ferdinand was a reformer, and they had a better chance under Ferdinand.
What happened instead is that the vast machinery of Europe, having almost stepped back from the brink of war, was thrown into four years of wanton and unnecessary bloodshed. The Serbian state was nearly utterly destroyed. It set the preconditions of the Second World War which was the most destructive war in history. The consequences of that single action set of a chain of events that led to the deaths of up to 100 million people.
Now maybe assassinating Viktor Orban or Justin Trudeau or whoever wouldn't set off such a conflagration, but here's the thing: you just don't know. If you paid someone to pull the trigger, all that blood is essentially on your hands.
I could go on to list all the times this hasn't worked or how internal power struggles in crumbling democracies often fail to deliver an improvement in living conditions and civil rights for the people.
The Arab Spring is a rather depressing reminder of how even well intentioned grassroots attempts at overthrowing tyranny can lead to both its entrenchment and expansion - look at Eygypt, Syria and Libya.
I think you'll also find that decapitating the leadership might effectively, most systems are somewhat resilient to it. We can look the Taliban, Al-Qaeda for examples on how despite numerous attacks/assassinations of leaders, they remain just as capable of carrying on fighting as long as their support networks are in place.
So going back to incentives. I mentioned before that in the event you described wasn't worth killing someone over. So when is it?
Let's consider briefly the Trolley Dilemma.
You see a runaway trolley moving toward five tied-up (or otherwise
incapacitated) people lying on the tracks. You are standing next to a
lever that controls a switch. If you pull the lever, the trolley will
be redirected onto a side track, and the five people on the main track
will be saved. However, there is a single person lying on the side
track. You have two options:
Do nothing and allow the trolley to kill the five people on the main
track.
Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where
it will kill one person.
Which is the more ethical option?
Another commenter brought up the example of how members of the German military tried to assassinate Hitler (I believe they tried a couple of times) and instigate a coup.
Intriguingly, someone else brought up Duterte.
There's only an ethical and pragmatic case to kill a politician where there is a clear threat to the lives of people under the rule of that person - where you can make a clear case that intervening would stop this person killing or enacting policies that would directly and explicitly result in killing innocent people. Killing Hitler might have shortened the Second World War and prevented part of the Holocaust.
In the case of Duterte, who has openly advocated and directly enabled the extrajudicial killings of tens of thousands of people, there is in fact an ethical, and perhaps, pragmatic case to intervene. This is clear and distinct from policies by national leaders who have decided to go to war in what they perceive to be the national interest, such as Russia or the United States.
These aren't ideal either, but quite distinct from using murder as an instrument of social policy. I submit that hiring a hitman to kill a single person differs only in magnitude to these crimes however, not only is it inethical in the scenario you are talking about, but from a practical standpoint, it's likely to be ineffective - and therefore even more unforgivable.
The best way to fight corruption is to build strong and empower strong democratic institutions with respect for the rule of law. This is probably cold comfort to someone living in Eastern Europe where corruption and illiberalism has been the norm for a very long time.
N.B. Please forgive what is a rather rough draft as I am procrastinating from programming at 4am. That said, probably a bad idea to kill politicians.
add a comment |
First of all, what's the problem you're trying to solve?
You want better government?
Then consider that corruption may not be as big a problem as incompetence, ideology or partisanship, in some societies.
So you kill all the corrupt politicians, but leave the incompetent, ideologically-driven, hyper-partisan ones in place. You may not have solved the problem. In fact, you may have made it worse, because politicians are a mixed bag.
A politician may be corrupt and really good at constituent services. A politician may be corrupt and a staunch anti-Communist.
Also, what makes you think that a corrupt politician won't be replaced by another corrupt politician? What's the point in targeting the person if you're not targeting the conditions and incentives that enticed that person to corruption in the first place? Corruption in government is a systemic problem.
Also, what's the definition of corruption? Who sets the definition?
All big questions.
It may be worthwhile to focus on defining the problem before spending too much time on solutions. Read about the XY Problem.
To answer your question directly:
Why is it a bad idea to hire a hitman to eliminate most corrupt politicians?
People are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law (at least in the United States).
What happens when you kill a politician you thought was corrupt, and it turns out he was innocent?
That's why we have a criminal justice system.
And why limit it to corrupt politicians? Why not engage in extrajudicial killings of alleged rapists, kidnappers, pedophiles, adulterers and car thiefs?
Keep in mind that in the United States there are many people on death row who have gone through extensive police investigations and court reviews. Their appeals are exhausted and they are simply awaiting execution. Sometimes, after many years, new evidence surfaces, witnesses recant or something else happens proving innocence. The inmate wins his freedom. Other times its too late.
Imagine what would happen with fewer layers of review, less oversight and faster sentencing.
8
Not only that, but "purging corrupt officials" is often used as an excuse to get rid of political opponents (as in the Philippines).
– 200_success
Apr 2 at 22:30
add a comment |
There are two obvious problems beyond the ethical ones.
1) The practical problem of cost. Nobody has enough money to get them all, even if there were enough competent hit-persons to do the job.
2) Are "corrupt" politicians really the problem, or is it the honest but incompetent and/or driven by ideology ones? After all, the corrupt politician wants to do a good enough job so that s/he can stay in office and keep on collecting money.
add a comment |
This would only work if you had some sort of infallible, morally pure, by everyone's standards (the disqualifying factor, right there), arbiter of right or wrong, that everyone else would defer to regarding who lives and who dies.
Otherwise, each and every political viewpoint would have their own image of who is good and who is evil, and motivated individuals would take it upon themselves to act. Conservative? Hillary deserves to die for the child sex ring in the basement of a pizzeria.... that was in a building that didn't have a basement.
Wikipedia: Pizzagate conspiracy theory
Complete conspiracy nut? Bush and Cheney must die for their 9/11 hoax where they used chemtrails and nano-bots to blow up the World Trade Centers.
Screaming liberal? Trump must die for ordering Russians to throw the election to him.
All of the above scenarios are either out and out nonsense, or probably do not have the level of "Dr Evil" scheming or control as many claim.
Basically, you'd have a free for all of executions by anyone and everyone thinking they are morally upright and those that disagree with them are not. In the United States, with our insanely tribal and polarized atmosphere and a heavily armed populace, you're talking drug-cartel level violence as public policy.
This entire premise would only work if there was a way to administer the lethal justice in a fair and impartial manner, and if there was a way to administer justice like that, then those means would exist for non-lethal sanctions, as well, making the lethal answer unnecessary. It relies on an impossible or unrealistic set of conditions in order to be administered in any kind of workable manner.
Was about to add an answer of my own but instead upvoted this one which pretty much covers it. The only thing I would add is that, leaving aside ethics/morals, the flaw in OP's logic comes in the statement that assassination is 'basically sending a message that most of the people are thinking: "We can see what you're doing and we won't just stay and do nothing"'—whereas in reality all it does is send the message that at least one person (with the means to hire an assassin) thinks that.
– jez
2 days ago
"infallible, morally pure, by everyone's standards (the disqualifying factor, right there), arbiter of right or wrong..." and this is why superhero movies are so popular these days. Many people would love to have Batman take care of those no-good so-and-sos - and in the movies they never go after the wrong guy.
– Jon of All Trades
yesterday
add a comment |
Just to add to the discussion, killing a corrupt leader is a bad idea from the stand point of stable and sustainable governments to follow. Not only assassination, which is in my opinion a plan with a consensus of limited number of people & ideology and power comes from consensus of large number of people, but also killing the leader in general is a bad idea we have seen few examples of this in history.
The French revolution comes to mind first. Robespierre's head cutting spree ended with his head on the guillotine and a very bad constitution. Gadaffi's killing also threw Libya in a state of anarchy, even though in both cases there was a general consensus that leaders were corrupt and needed replacement.
When killing a leader is accepted in a society, there is no room for rule of law and society would fragment. Assassinations would lead to disagreements being settled by violence and no leader to be chosen as disagreements will always remain, society would be headless, and anarchy would prevail.
add a comment |
The entire idea behind presidential impeachment is to reduce the likelihood of assassination. Furthermore, the right to bear arms was intended to ensure that the government would fear the people, and not the people fear the government.
As revolutionaries, the people behind the American and French wars for independence actually did consider that assassination was a logical form of resistance.
French war for independence? Louis XVI's France was independent. Do you mean the Revolutionary Wars?
– Peter Mortensen
yesterday
add a comment |
Surprised I don't see this point made clear anywhere yet:
In the United States (a simple example, but many others have similar divides), a sizable portion of the population thinks that most democrats are corrupt and a sizable portion of the population thinks that most republicans are corrupt.
Let's say your proposal becomes reality: everyone kills everyone else, and practically no politicians remain.
You are left without a functioning state government, not with a state government devoid of corrupt politicians, and you have anarchy - which some people (not myself) would embrace.
add a comment |
I believe as an outsider to power, one is not qualified to make such a decision to change the balance of power. You are not privy to secret information, or classified information.
e.g. The bomb attempt on Hitler was carried out by those within a close circle of power.
Extrajudicial killings may need to be made with information that only a small group of those in power know as well as understand.
Certainly, those at the top of a hierarchy may decide that a certain member needs to be removed, but why choose such a method, when courts, shame, and infamy are just as effective. Why get one's hands bloody?
2
I'd argue that courts, shame, and infamy are rather ineffective tools against corrupt politicians.
– Nuclear Wang
Apr 2 at 15:16
1
@NuclearWang Only if they have a broad power base. i.e. Many other corrupt politicians, bureaucrats, judges, and such ilk.
– paulj
Apr 2 at 16:40
add a comment |
Instead of assassinating the corrupt politician(s), why not simply punish them as any other criminal? Such as with jail time.
Your answer might be that:
- He will just pay off the jailers or police or any other person in the process.
But this answer then means that this politician is not the only corrupt person - it implies that all of society is corrupt or at least that people with some responsibility and power are corrupt.
If this is the case, then alternative punishments like jail time will do nothing. Also, assassinating the politician will do nothing, because the next to take over will also be corrupt.
So, in essence, assassination will work no better than any other type of punishment. If the system / society as a whole is corrupt, then it will help nothing to assassinate just one of many corrupt politicians. And if the society is fine, then more humane and normal punishments will do just fine.
Assassinations is not an accepted punishment anywhere I know of, and so it will never be a method to use. Either use the proper punishment, or forget about punishment methods entirely (and instead work in the culture from within).
The argument that one assassination will scare off other politicians from continuing to be corrupt might only risk on a more brutal government as has been seen with tyrannical government throughout history that had to keep their people in place.
add a comment |
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Basically because your idea (assassination of corrupt politician) undermines rather than reinforces the rule of law. Usually the definition of corruption includes some kind of illegal activity. Otherwise it's just stuff you don't like for personal moral reasons. And if everyone started to use assasination to solve their moral differences... the basis of the (modern) state as the sole authority for violence would cease to exist.
And given that it's apparently a fairly popular idea, in some movies at least, here's some similar commentary on the idea:
The violence could worsen the problem of corruption,” says Michael Johnston, a political scientist and professor at Colgate University. “It would legitimate violent action from the persecuted politicians, and encourage a hunt for the suspects. That is what will happen with Rodrigo Duterte’s tactics in the Philippines,” he explains, referring to the Philippine president who wishes to distribute 42 thousand weapons to ordinary citizens, especially community leaders, so they can go around the country killing people involved with any form of illicit activities, especially drug trafficking.
In such a scenario, a climate similar to that of Joseph Stalin’s Soviet Union would be implemented: any accusation, no matter how little justified by concrete evidence, would mean a death penalty or exile. And the dead corrupt politicians would quickly be replaced by other ones – as it already happens with members of the organized crime.
And since that part doesn't get developed with any examples there, South Africa is perhaps an example where the whistleblowers are the ones that usually end up assassinated, nowadays.
Political assassinations are rising sharply in South Africa, threatening the stability of hard-hit parts of the country and imperiling Mr. Mandela’s dream of a unified, democratic nation.
But unlike much of the political violence that upended the country in the 1990s, the recent killings are not being driven by vicious battles between rival political parties.
Quite the opposite: In most cases, A.N.C. officials are killing one another, hiring professional hit men to eliminate fellow party members in an all-or-nothing fight over money, turf and power, A.N.C. officials say. [...]
The recent assassinations cover a wide range of personal and political feuds. Some victims were A.N.C. officials who became targets after exposing or denouncing corruption within the party. Others fell in internal battles for lucrative posts.
Encouraging assassination as a legitimate political tool can easily lead to that since who has more money to pay hitmen?
And to reinforce this idea, going back to Duterte, here's a quote from him:
Rodrigo Duterte has warned journalists in the Philippines that they are legitimate targets for assassination if they do wrong, in the President-elect’s latest controversial comments ahead of being sworn into office later this month.
Duterte was asked during a press conference Tuesday how he would address the country’s high murder rate for journalists, reports Agence France-Presse. “Just because you’re a journalist you are not exempted from assassination, if you’re a son of a bitch,” he replied.
Interestingly, Duterte was apparently referring to (or perhaps reducing the problem to) the rather complex case of Jun Pala, who apparently himself was linked to a vigilante group that exposed and allegedly assassinated some [corrupt] politicians.
And since this came up several times in the comments, here's a definition(s) primer:
“Corruption” is a term whose meaning shifts with the speaker. It can describe the
corruption of the young from watching violence on television or refer to political
decisions that provide narrow benefits to one’s constituents in the form, say, of a new
road through the district. In short, speakers use the term to cover a range of actions that
they find undesirable. Because my topic includes both corruption and poor governance, I
omit both morally corrupting activities, on the one hand, and run-of-the-mill
constituency-based politics, on the other. I use the common definition of corruption as the
“misuse of public power for private or political gain,” recognizing that “misuse” must be
defined in terms of some standard. Many corrupt activities under this definition are illegal
in most countries—for example, paying and receiving bribes, fraud, embezzlement, self-dealing, conflicts of interest, and providing a quid pro quo in return for campaign gifts.
However, part of the policy debate turns on where to draw the legal line and how to
control borderline phenomena, such as conflicts of interest, which many political systems
fail to regulate. [...] one of the most important debates turns on the issue
of “state capture” or the problem of creating open democratic/market societies in states
where a narrow elite has a disproportionate influence on state policy. In those countries
outright bribery may be low, but the system is riddled with special interest deals that
favor the few over the many.
In some sense, plain-old tyranny (which several comments addressed) is an extreme form of state capture. (When there aren't even pretenses anymore.)
State capture is of course somewhat different than "conventional" corruption because there's (usually widespread) institutional and legislative failure. Whether peaceful reform or violent revolution is the appropriate solution for such a state of affairs is a somewhat related but sufficiently different question, so I won't attempt to address that here.
76
Apart from the points of the answer, the whole setup of the idea is rather naive. The corrupt politicians stand in power because they have a power base that supports them, even if they are corrupt. The idea that the problems of a country are the fault of a single man is rather tempting as it provides an easy solution, but completely false and it is mostly wishful thinking and scapegoating.
– SJuan76
Apr 2 at 9:19
7
@owjburnham: overthrow doesn't necessarily mean killing.
– Fizz
Apr 2 at 9:33
22
@AngelVenchev But who decides what's a "very extreme situation"? There are many political assassinations where the assassin had a motive most people would consider a very minor issue or even no issue at all. But the assassin obviously considered those reasons "extreme" enough to commit a murder they will very likely get caught for. There are a lot of political extremists who do not realize they are extremists.
– Philipp♦
Apr 2 at 11:02
10
@FrankCedeno: If we're talking revolutions here, we're probably in a different ball game. As I understood this question it's about mundane corruption. You're welcome to add another answer. Ferdinand was probably not corrupt according to the laws of his time...
– Fizz
Apr 2 at 12:17
7
@TKK When was this demonstrated?
– DonFusili
yesterday
|
show 11 more comments
Basically because your idea (assassination of corrupt politician) undermines rather than reinforces the rule of law. Usually the definition of corruption includes some kind of illegal activity. Otherwise it's just stuff you don't like for personal moral reasons. And if everyone started to use assasination to solve their moral differences... the basis of the (modern) state as the sole authority for violence would cease to exist.
And given that it's apparently a fairly popular idea, in some movies at least, here's some similar commentary on the idea:
The violence could worsen the problem of corruption,” says Michael Johnston, a political scientist and professor at Colgate University. “It would legitimate violent action from the persecuted politicians, and encourage a hunt for the suspects. That is what will happen with Rodrigo Duterte’s tactics in the Philippines,” he explains, referring to the Philippine president who wishes to distribute 42 thousand weapons to ordinary citizens, especially community leaders, so they can go around the country killing people involved with any form of illicit activities, especially drug trafficking.
In such a scenario, a climate similar to that of Joseph Stalin’s Soviet Union would be implemented: any accusation, no matter how little justified by concrete evidence, would mean a death penalty or exile. And the dead corrupt politicians would quickly be replaced by other ones – as it already happens with members of the organized crime.
And since that part doesn't get developed with any examples there, South Africa is perhaps an example where the whistleblowers are the ones that usually end up assassinated, nowadays.
Political assassinations are rising sharply in South Africa, threatening the stability of hard-hit parts of the country and imperiling Mr. Mandela’s dream of a unified, democratic nation.
But unlike much of the political violence that upended the country in the 1990s, the recent killings are not being driven by vicious battles between rival political parties.
Quite the opposite: In most cases, A.N.C. officials are killing one another, hiring professional hit men to eliminate fellow party members in an all-or-nothing fight over money, turf and power, A.N.C. officials say. [...]
The recent assassinations cover a wide range of personal and political feuds. Some victims were A.N.C. officials who became targets after exposing or denouncing corruption within the party. Others fell in internal battles for lucrative posts.
Encouraging assassination as a legitimate political tool can easily lead to that since who has more money to pay hitmen?
And to reinforce this idea, going back to Duterte, here's a quote from him:
Rodrigo Duterte has warned journalists in the Philippines that they are legitimate targets for assassination if they do wrong, in the President-elect’s latest controversial comments ahead of being sworn into office later this month.
Duterte was asked during a press conference Tuesday how he would address the country’s high murder rate for journalists, reports Agence France-Presse. “Just because you’re a journalist you are not exempted from assassination, if you’re a son of a bitch,” he replied.
Interestingly, Duterte was apparently referring to (or perhaps reducing the problem to) the rather complex case of Jun Pala, who apparently himself was linked to a vigilante group that exposed and allegedly assassinated some [corrupt] politicians.
And since this came up several times in the comments, here's a definition(s) primer:
“Corruption” is a term whose meaning shifts with the speaker. It can describe the
corruption of the young from watching violence on television or refer to political
decisions that provide narrow benefits to one’s constituents in the form, say, of a new
road through the district. In short, speakers use the term to cover a range of actions that
they find undesirable. Because my topic includes both corruption and poor governance, I
omit both morally corrupting activities, on the one hand, and run-of-the-mill
constituency-based politics, on the other. I use the common definition of corruption as the
“misuse of public power for private or political gain,” recognizing that “misuse” must be
defined in terms of some standard. Many corrupt activities under this definition are illegal
in most countries—for example, paying and receiving bribes, fraud, embezzlement, self-dealing, conflicts of interest, and providing a quid pro quo in return for campaign gifts.
However, part of the policy debate turns on where to draw the legal line and how to
control borderline phenomena, such as conflicts of interest, which many political systems
fail to regulate. [...] one of the most important debates turns on the issue
of “state capture” or the problem of creating open democratic/market societies in states
where a narrow elite has a disproportionate influence on state policy. In those countries
outright bribery may be low, but the system is riddled with special interest deals that
favor the few over the many.
In some sense, plain-old tyranny (which several comments addressed) is an extreme form of state capture. (When there aren't even pretenses anymore.)
State capture is of course somewhat different than "conventional" corruption because there's (usually widespread) institutional and legislative failure. Whether peaceful reform or violent revolution is the appropriate solution for such a state of affairs is a somewhat related but sufficiently different question, so I won't attempt to address that here.
76
Apart from the points of the answer, the whole setup of the idea is rather naive. The corrupt politicians stand in power because they have a power base that supports them, even if they are corrupt. The idea that the problems of a country are the fault of a single man is rather tempting as it provides an easy solution, but completely false and it is mostly wishful thinking and scapegoating.
– SJuan76
Apr 2 at 9:19
7
@owjburnham: overthrow doesn't necessarily mean killing.
– Fizz
Apr 2 at 9:33
22
@AngelVenchev But who decides what's a "very extreme situation"? There are many political assassinations where the assassin had a motive most people would consider a very minor issue or even no issue at all. But the assassin obviously considered those reasons "extreme" enough to commit a murder they will very likely get caught for. There are a lot of political extremists who do not realize they are extremists.
– Philipp♦
Apr 2 at 11:02
10
@FrankCedeno: If we're talking revolutions here, we're probably in a different ball game. As I understood this question it's about mundane corruption. You're welcome to add another answer. Ferdinand was probably not corrupt according to the laws of his time...
– Fizz
Apr 2 at 12:17
7
@TKK When was this demonstrated?
– DonFusili
yesterday
|
show 11 more comments
Basically because your idea (assassination of corrupt politician) undermines rather than reinforces the rule of law. Usually the definition of corruption includes some kind of illegal activity. Otherwise it's just stuff you don't like for personal moral reasons. And if everyone started to use assasination to solve their moral differences... the basis of the (modern) state as the sole authority for violence would cease to exist.
And given that it's apparently a fairly popular idea, in some movies at least, here's some similar commentary on the idea:
The violence could worsen the problem of corruption,” says Michael Johnston, a political scientist and professor at Colgate University. “It would legitimate violent action from the persecuted politicians, and encourage a hunt for the suspects. That is what will happen with Rodrigo Duterte’s tactics in the Philippines,” he explains, referring to the Philippine president who wishes to distribute 42 thousand weapons to ordinary citizens, especially community leaders, so they can go around the country killing people involved with any form of illicit activities, especially drug trafficking.
In such a scenario, a climate similar to that of Joseph Stalin’s Soviet Union would be implemented: any accusation, no matter how little justified by concrete evidence, would mean a death penalty or exile. And the dead corrupt politicians would quickly be replaced by other ones – as it already happens with members of the organized crime.
And since that part doesn't get developed with any examples there, South Africa is perhaps an example where the whistleblowers are the ones that usually end up assassinated, nowadays.
Political assassinations are rising sharply in South Africa, threatening the stability of hard-hit parts of the country and imperiling Mr. Mandela’s dream of a unified, democratic nation.
But unlike much of the political violence that upended the country in the 1990s, the recent killings are not being driven by vicious battles between rival political parties.
Quite the opposite: In most cases, A.N.C. officials are killing one another, hiring professional hit men to eliminate fellow party members in an all-or-nothing fight over money, turf and power, A.N.C. officials say. [...]
The recent assassinations cover a wide range of personal and political feuds. Some victims were A.N.C. officials who became targets after exposing or denouncing corruption within the party. Others fell in internal battles for lucrative posts.
Encouraging assassination as a legitimate political tool can easily lead to that since who has more money to pay hitmen?
And to reinforce this idea, going back to Duterte, here's a quote from him:
Rodrigo Duterte has warned journalists in the Philippines that they are legitimate targets for assassination if they do wrong, in the President-elect’s latest controversial comments ahead of being sworn into office later this month.
Duterte was asked during a press conference Tuesday how he would address the country’s high murder rate for journalists, reports Agence France-Presse. “Just because you’re a journalist you are not exempted from assassination, if you’re a son of a bitch,” he replied.
Interestingly, Duterte was apparently referring to (or perhaps reducing the problem to) the rather complex case of Jun Pala, who apparently himself was linked to a vigilante group that exposed and allegedly assassinated some [corrupt] politicians.
And since this came up several times in the comments, here's a definition(s) primer:
“Corruption” is a term whose meaning shifts with the speaker. It can describe the
corruption of the young from watching violence on television or refer to political
decisions that provide narrow benefits to one’s constituents in the form, say, of a new
road through the district. In short, speakers use the term to cover a range of actions that
they find undesirable. Because my topic includes both corruption and poor governance, I
omit both morally corrupting activities, on the one hand, and run-of-the-mill
constituency-based politics, on the other. I use the common definition of corruption as the
“misuse of public power for private or political gain,” recognizing that “misuse” must be
defined in terms of some standard. Many corrupt activities under this definition are illegal
in most countries—for example, paying and receiving bribes, fraud, embezzlement, self-dealing, conflicts of interest, and providing a quid pro quo in return for campaign gifts.
However, part of the policy debate turns on where to draw the legal line and how to
control borderline phenomena, such as conflicts of interest, which many political systems
fail to regulate. [...] one of the most important debates turns on the issue
of “state capture” or the problem of creating open democratic/market societies in states
where a narrow elite has a disproportionate influence on state policy. In those countries
outright bribery may be low, but the system is riddled with special interest deals that
favor the few over the many.
In some sense, plain-old tyranny (which several comments addressed) is an extreme form of state capture. (When there aren't even pretenses anymore.)
State capture is of course somewhat different than "conventional" corruption because there's (usually widespread) institutional and legislative failure. Whether peaceful reform or violent revolution is the appropriate solution for such a state of affairs is a somewhat related but sufficiently different question, so I won't attempt to address that here.
Basically because your idea (assassination of corrupt politician) undermines rather than reinforces the rule of law. Usually the definition of corruption includes some kind of illegal activity. Otherwise it's just stuff you don't like for personal moral reasons. And if everyone started to use assasination to solve their moral differences... the basis of the (modern) state as the sole authority for violence would cease to exist.
And given that it's apparently a fairly popular idea, in some movies at least, here's some similar commentary on the idea:
The violence could worsen the problem of corruption,” says Michael Johnston, a political scientist and professor at Colgate University. “It would legitimate violent action from the persecuted politicians, and encourage a hunt for the suspects. That is what will happen with Rodrigo Duterte’s tactics in the Philippines,” he explains, referring to the Philippine president who wishes to distribute 42 thousand weapons to ordinary citizens, especially community leaders, so they can go around the country killing people involved with any form of illicit activities, especially drug trafficking.
In such a scenario, a climate similar to that of Joseph Stalin’s Soviet Union would be implemented: any accusation, no matter how little justified by concrete evidence, would mean a death penalty or exile. And the dead corrupt politicians would quickly be replaced by other ones – as it already happens with members of the organized crime.
And since that part doesn't get developed with any examples there, South Africa is perhaps an example where the whistleblowers are the ones that usually end up assassinated, nowadays.
Political assassinations are rising sharply in South Africa, threatening the stability of hard-hit parts of the country and imperiling Mr. Mandela’s dream of a unified, democratic nation.
But unlike much of the political violence that upended the country in the 1990s, the recent killings are not being driven by vicious battles between rival political parties.
Quite the opposite: In most cases, A.N.C. officials are killing one another, hiring professional hit men to eliminate fellow party members in an all-or-nothing fight over money, turf and power, A.N.C. officials say. [...]
The recent assassinations cover a wide range of personal and political feuds. Some victims were A.N.C. officials who became targets after exposing or denouncing corruption within the party. Others fell in internal battles for lucrative posts.
Encouraging assassination as a legitimate political tool can easily lead to that since who has more money to pay hitmen?
And to reinforce this idea, going back to Duterte, here's a quote from him:
Rodrigo Duterte has warned journalists in the Philippines that they are legitimate targets for assassination if they do wrong, in the President-elect’s latest controversial comments ahead of being sworn into office later this month.
Duterte was asked during a press conference Tuesday how he would address the country’s high murder rate for journalists, reports Agence France-Presse. “Just because you’re a journalist you are not exempted from assassination, if you’re a son of a bitch,” he replied.
Interestingly, Duterte was apparently referring to (or perhaps reducing the problem to) the rather complex case of Jun Pala, who apparently himself was linked to a vigilante group that exposed and allegedly assassinated some [corrupt] politicians.
And since this came up several times in the comments, here's a definition(s) primer:
“Corruption” is a term whose meaning shifts with the speaker. It can describe the
corruption of the young from watching violence on television or refer to political
decisions that provide narrow benefits to one’s constituents in the form, say, of a new
road through the district. In short, speakers use the term to cover a range of actions that
they find undesirable. Because my topic includes both corruption and poor governance, I
omit both morally corrupting activities, on the one hand, and run-of-the-mill
constituency-based politics, on the other. I use the common definition of corruption as the
“misuse of public power for private or political gain,” recognizing that “misuse” must be
defined in terms of some standard. Many corrupt activities under this definition are illegal
in most countries—for example, paying and receiving bribes, fraud, embezzlement, self-dealing, conflicts of interest, and providing a quid pro quo in return for campaign gifts.
However, part of the policy debate turns on where to draw the legal line and how to
control borderline phenomena, such as conflicts of interest, which many political systems
fail to regulate. [...] one of the most important debates turns on the issue
of “state capture” or the problem of creating open democratic/market societies in states
where a narrow elite has a disproportionate influence on state policy. In those countries
outright bribery may be low, but the system is riddled with special interest deals that
favor the few over the many.
In some sense, plain-old tyranny (which several comments addressed) is an extreme form of state capture. (When there aren't even pretenses anymore.)
State capture is of course somewhat different than "conventional" corruption because there's (usually widespread) institutional and legislative failure. Whether peaceful reform or violent revolution is the appropriate solution for such a state of affairs is a somewhat related but sufficiently different question, so I won't attempt to address that here.
edited yesterday
David Richerby
1,713819
1,713819
answered Apr 2 at 9:10
FizzFizz
13.8k23287
13.8k23287
76
Apart from the points of the answer, the whole setup of the idea is rather naive. The corrupt politicians stand in power because they have a power base that supports them, even if they are corrupt. The idea that the problems of a country are the fault of a single man is rather tempting as it provides an easy solution, but completely false and it is mostly wishful thinking and scapegoating.
– SJuan76
Apr 2 at 9:19
7
@owjburnham: overthrow doesn't necessarily mean killing.
– Fizz
Apr 2 at 9:33
22
@AngelVenchev But who decides what's a "very extreme situation"? There are many political assassinations where the assassin had a motive most people would consider a very minor issue or even no issue at all. But the assassin obviously considered those reasons "extreme" enough to commit a murder they will very likely get caught for. There are a lot of political extremists who do not realize they are extremists.
– Philipp♦
Apr 2 at 11:02
10
@FrankCedeno: If we're talking revolutions here, we're probably in a different ball game. As I understood this question it's about mundane corruption. You're welcome to add another answer. Ferdinand was probably not corrupt according to the laws of his time...
– Fizz
Apr 2 at 12:17
7
@TKK When was this demonstrated?
– DonFusili
yesterday
|
show 11 more comments
76
Apart from the points of the answer, the whole setup of the idea is rather naive. The corrupt politicians stand in power because they have a power base that supports them, even if they are corrupt. The idea that the problems of a country are the fault of a single man is rather tempting as it provides an easy solution, but completely false and it is mostly wishful thinking and scapegoating.
– SJuan76
Apr 2 at 9:19
7
@owjburnham: overthrow doesn't necessarily mean killing.
– Fizz
Apr 2 at 9:33
22
@AngelVenchev But who decides what's a "very extreme situation"? There are many political assassinations where the assassin had a motive most people would consider a very minor issue or even no issue at all. But the assassin obviously considered those reasons "extreme" enough to commit a murder they will very likely get caught for. There are a lot of political extremists who do not realize they are extremists.
– Philipp♦
Apr 2 at 11:02
10
@FrankCedeno: If we're talking revolutions here, we're probably in a different ball game. As I understood this question it's about mundane corruption. You're welcome to add another answer. Ferdinand was probably not corrupt according to the laws of his time...
– Fizz
Apr 2 at 12:17
7
@TKK When was this demonstrated?
– DonFusili
yesterday
76
76
Apart from the points of the answer, the whole setup of the idea is rather naive. The corrupt politicians stand in power because they have a power base that supports them, even if they are corrupt. The idea that the problems of a country are the fault of a single man is rather tempting as it provides an easy solution, but completely false and it is mostly wishful thinking and scapegoating.
– SJuan76
Apr 2 at 9:19
Apart from the points of the answer, the whole setup of the idea is rather naive. The corrupt politicians stand in power because they have a power base that supports them, even if they are corrupt. The idea that the problems of a country are the fault of a single man is rather tempting as it provides an easy solution, but completely false and it is mostly wishful thinking and scapegoating.
– SJuan76
Apr 2 at 9:19
7
7
@owjburnham: overthrow doesn't necessarily mean killing.
– Fizz
Apr 2 at 9:33
@owjburnham: overthrow doesn't necessarily mean killing.
– Fizz
Apr 2 at 9:33
22
22
@AngelVenchev But who decides what's a "very extreme situation"? There are many political assassinations where the assassin had a motive most people would consider a very minor issue or even no issue at all. But the assassin obviously considered those reasons "extreme" enough to commit a murder they will very likely get caught for. There are a lot of political extremists who do not realize they are extremists.
– Philipp♦
Apr 2 at 11:02
@AngelVenchev But who decides what's a "very extreme situation"? There are many political assassinations where the assassin had a motive most people would consider a very minor issue or even no issue at all. But the assassin obviously considered those reasons "extreme" enough to commit a murder they will very likely get caught for. There are a lot of political extremists who do not realize they are extremists.
– Philipp♦
Apr 2 at 11:02
10
10
@FrankCedeno: If we're talking revolutions here, we're probably in a different ball game. As I understood this question it's about mundane corruption. You're welcome to add another answer. Ferdinand was probably not corrupt according to the laws of his time...
– Fizz
Apr 2 at 12:17
@FrankCedeno: If we're talking revolutions here, we're probably in a different ball game. As I understood this question it's about mundane corruption. You're welcome to add another answer. Ferdinand was probably not corrupt according to the laws of his time...
– Fizz
Apr 2 at 12:17
7
7
@TKK When was this demonstrated?
– DonFusili
yesterday
@TKK When was this demonstrated?
– DonFusili
yesterday
|
show 11 more comments
Interestingly, avoiding this is one of the reasons that the United States Constitution provides means for legal impeachment of the president.
Dr. Franklin was for retaining the clause [on impeachment], as favorable to the executive. History furnishes one example only of a first magistrate being formally brought to public justice. Every body cried out against this as unconstitutional. What was the practice before this, in cases where the chief magistrate rendered himself obnoxious? Why, recourse was had to assassination, in which he was not only deprived of his life, but of the opportunity of vindicating his character. It would be the best way, therefore, to provide in the Constitution for the regular punishment of the executive, where his misconduct should deserve it, and for his honorable acquittal, where he should be unjustly accused
BENJAMIN FRANKLIN, debates in the Constitutional Convention, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, July 20, 1787.—James Madison, Debates on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution, ed. Jonathan Elliot, vol. 5, pp. 340–41 (1845).
In addition to the practical and moral reasons which have been raised by other answers, assassination deprives the targeted politician of the chance to clear their name and it deprives the public of the chance to learn, in a fair and just manner, if the charges were justified or not.
add a comment |
Interestingly, avoiding this is one of the reasons that the United States Constitution provides means for legal impeachment of the president.
Dr. Franklin was for retaining the clause [on impeachment], as favorable to the executive. History furnishes one example only of a first magistrate being formally brought to public justice. Every body cried out against this as unconstitutional. What was the practice before this, in cases where the chief magistrate rendered himself obnoxious? Why, recourse was had to assassination, in which he was not only deprived of his life, but of the opportunity of vindicating his character. It would be the best way, therefore, to provide in the Constitution for the regular punishment of the executive, where his misconduct should deserve it, and for his honorable acquittal, where he should be unjustly accused
BENJAMIN FRANKLIN, debates in the Constitutional Convention, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, July 20, 1787.—James Madison, Debates on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution, ed. Jonathan Elliot, vol. 5, pp. 340–41 (1845).
In addition to the practical and moral reasons which have been raised by other answers, assassination deprives the targeted politician of the chance to clear their name and it deprives the public of the chance to learn, in a fair and just manner, if the charges were justified or not.
add a comment |
Interestingly, avoiding this is one of the reasons that the United States Constitution provides means for legal impeachment of the president.
Dr. Franklin was for retaining the clause [on impeachment], as favorable to the executive. History furnishes one example only of a first magistrate being formally brought to public justice. Every body cried out against this as unconstitutional. What was the practice before this, in cases where the chief magistrate rendered himself obnoxious? Why, recourse was had to assassination, in which he was not only deprived of his life, but of the opportunity of vindicating his character. It would be the best way, therefore, to provide in the Constitution for the regular punishment of the executive, where his misconduct should deserve it, and for his honorable acquittal, where he should be unjustly accused
BENJAMIN FRANKLIN, debates in the Constitutional Convention, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, July 20, 1787.—James Madison, Debates on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution, ed. Jonathan Elliot, vol. 5, pp. 340–41 (1845).
In addition to the practical and moral reasons which have been raised by other answers, assassination deprives the targeted politician of the chance to clear their name and it deprives the public of the chance to learn, in a fair and just manner, if the charges were justified or not.
Interestingly, avoiding this is one of the reasons that the United States Constitution provides means for legal impeachment of the president.
Dr. Franklin was for retaining the clause [on impeachment], as favorable to the executive. History furnishes one example only of a first magistrate being formally brought to public justice. Every body cried out against this as unconstitutional. What was the practice before this, in cases where the chief magistrate rendered himself obnoxious? Why, recourse was had to assassination, in which he was not only deprived of his life, but of the opportunity of vindicating his character. It would be the best way, therefore, to provide in the Constitution for the regular punishment of the executive, where his misconduct should deserve it, and for his honorable acquittal, where he should be unjustly accused
BENJAMIN FRANKLIN, debates in the Constitutional Convention, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, July 20, 1787.—James Madison, Debates on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution, ed. Jonathan Elliot, vol. 5, pp. 340–41 (1845).
In addition to the practical and moral reasons which have been raised by other answers, assassination deprives the targeted politician of the chance to clear their name and it deprives the public of the chance to learn, in a fair and just manner, if the charges were justified or not.
edited Apr 2 at 17:19
answered Apr 2 at 16:34
divibisandivibisan
1,477623
1,477623
add a comment |
add a comment |
The question is whether the politician is corrupt or the whole society is corrupt. Often most corrupt politician belongs to corrupt societies. Therefore, if you kill a corrupt politician, another corrupt will take its place.
Same thing happens with drug traffic. Whenever a cartel falls, another one takes control of the vacuum left, because the demand of drugs does not fall because a cartel in power is gone.
If people accept death of the corrupt politician, maybe few people would like to be polician, but the ones who take that path would be more corrupt than ever, because they must accept the risk of being a politician. Hence, they need to profit faster to take the risk.
What would happen with your hitman? if society accept that death, then your hitman would be hired to kill other people, because death by assasination would be nice for many.
This seems like a Perfect Solution Fallacy. It's certainly true that assassinating a single bad actor, whether a politician or a mafia boss, won't solve everything. However, it's also true that adding a significant risk of death makes corruption less appealing, and should discourage abuse to some extent. It's not obvious that such a situation would encourage more corruption, because raking in dirty cash quickly will generally be more obvious - and more likely to attract acute lead poisoning.
– Jon of All Trades
yesterday
2
@JonofAllTrades I think corruption would be in the same ballpark as other crimes in that it is not the severity of punishment that deters, but rather unavoidability. Note that as soon as you start assassination game, it won't matter of you are corrupt, just if your hitman is faster than the one who expects to be paid for you.
– Gnudiff
yesterday
add a comment |
The question is whether the politician is corrupt or the whole society is corrupt. Often most corrupt politician belongs to corrupt societies. Therefore, if you kill a corrupt politician, another corrupt will take its place.
Same thing happens with drug traffic. Whenever a cartel falls, another one takes control of the vacuum left, because the demand of drugs does not fall because a cartel in power is gone.
If people accept death of the corrupt politician, maybe few people would like to be polician, but the ones who take that path would be more corrupt than ever, because they must accept the risk of being a politician. Hence, they need to profit faster to take the risk.
What would happen with your hitman? if society accept that death, then your hitman would be hired to kill other people, because death by assasination would be nice for many.
This seems like a Perfect Solution Fallacy. It's certainly true that assassinating a single bad actor, whether a politician or a mafia boss, won't solve everything. However, it's also true that adding a significant risk of death makes corruption less appealing, and should discourage abuse to some extent. It's not obvious that such a situation would encourage more corruption, because raking in dirty cash quickly will generally be more obvious - and more likely to attract acute lead poisoning.
– Jon of All Trades
yesterday
2
@JonofAllTrades I think corruption would be in the same ballpark as other crimes in that it is not the severity of punishment that deters, but rather unavoidability. Note that as soon as you start assassination game, it won't matter of you are corrupt, just if your hitman is faster than the one who expects to be paid for you.
– Gnudiff
yesterday
add a comment |
The question is whether the politician is corrupt or the whole society is corrupt. Often most corrupt politician belongs to corrupt societies. Therefore, if you kill a corrupt politician, another corrupt will take its place.
Same thing happens with drug traffic. Whenever a cartel falls, another one takes control of the vacuum left, because the demand of drugs does not fall because a cartel in power is gone.
If people accept death of the corrupt politician, maybe few people would like to be polician, but the ones who take that path would be more corrupt than ever, because they must accept the risk of being a politician. Hence, they need to profit faster to take the risk.
What would happen with your hitman? if society accept that death, then your hitman would be hired to kill other people, because death by assasination would be nice for many.
The question is whether the politician is corrupt or the whole society is corrupt. Often most corrupt politician belongs to corrupt societies. Therefore, if you kill a corrupt politician, another corrupt will take its place.
Same thing happens with drug traffic. Whenever a cartel falls, another one takes control of the vacuum left, because the demand of drugs does not fall because a cartel in power is gone.
If people accept death of the corrupt politician, maybe few people would like to be polician, but the ones who take that path would be more corrupt than ever, because they must accept the risk of being a politician. Hence, they need to profit faster to take the risk.
What would happen with your hitman? if society accept that death, then your hitman would be hired to kill other people, because death by assasination would be nice for many.
answered Apr 2 at 12:23
SantiagoSantiago
50314
50314
This seems like a Perfect Solution Fallacy. It's certainly true that assassinating a single bad actor, whether a politician or a mafia boss, won't solve everything. However, it's also true that adding a significant risk of death makes corruption less appealing, and should discourage abuse to some extent. It's not obvious that such a situation would encourage more corruption, because raking in dirty cash quickly will generally be more obvious - and more likely to attract acute lead poisoning.
– Jon of All Trades
yesterday
2
@JonofAllTrades I think corruption would be in the same ballpark as other crimes in that it is not the severity of punishment that deters, but rather unavoidability. Note that as soon as you start assassination game, it won't matter of you are corrupt, just if your hitman is faster than the one who expects to be paid for you.
– Gnudiff
yesterday
add a comment |
This seems like a Perfect Solution Fallacy. It's certainly true that assassinating a single bad actor, whether a politician or a mafia boss, won't solve everything. However, it's also true that adding a significant risk of death makes corruption less appealing, and should discourage abuse to some extent. It's not obvious that such a situation would encourage more corruption, because raking in dirty cash quickly will generally be more obvious - and more likely to attract acute lead poisoning.
– Jon of All Trades
yesterday
2
@JonofAllTrades I think corruption would be in the same ballpark as other crimes in that it is not the severity of punishment that deters, but rather unavoidability. Note that as soon as you start assassination game, it won't matter of you are corrupt, just if your hitman is faster than the one who expects to be paid for you.
– Gnudiff
yesterday
This seems like a Perfect Solution Fallacy. It's certainly true that assassinating a single bad actor, whether a politician or a mafia boss, won't solve everything. However, it's also true that adding a significant risk of death makes corruption less appealing, and should discourage abuse to some extent. It's not obvious that such a situation would encourage more corruption, because raking in dirty cash quickly will generally be more obvious - and more likely to attract acute lead poisoning.
– Jon of All Trades
yesterday
This seems like a Perfect Solution Fallacy. It's certainly true that assassinating a single bad actor, whether a politician or a mafia boss, won't solve everything. However, it's also true that adding a significant risk of death makes corruption less appealing, and should discourage abuse to some extent. It's not obvious that such a situation would encourage more corruption, because raking in dirty cash quickly will generally be more obvious - and more likely to attract acute lead poisoning.
– Jon of All Trades
yesterday
2
2
@JonofAllTrades I think corruption would be in the same ballpark as other crimes in that it is not the severity of punishment that deters, but rather unavoidability. Note that as soon as you start assassination game, it won't matter of you are corrupt, just if your hitman is faster than the one who expects to be paid for you.
– Gnudiff
yesterday
@JonofAllTrades I think corruption would be in the same ballpark as other crimes in that it is not the severity of punishment that deters, but rather unavoidability. Note that as soon as you start assassination game, it won't matter of you are corrupt, just if your hitman is faster than the one who expects to be paid for you.
– Gnudiff
yesterday
add a comment |
Suppose, as per the premise of the question, that the public is fond of sponsoring assassinations. A clever corrupt politician could use that to his own advantage, and the nation's detriment:
A politician could weaponize the state's propaganda system to mold public resentment toward prominent reformers, so that the gullible public could be wrongly persuaded to fund assassins to murder the reformers themselves.
Organized assassination markets would justify using emergency powers to create a temporary, or even permanent, police state, which could be used to crush such markets, and oppress and murder reformers.
Since it's an assassination market system, it would favor buyers with more money. So a wealthy criminal would have money to spend, whereas the honest poor would not. Therefore such a market would tend to best reward assassins employed by the ruthlessly wealthy to murder reformers.
3
+1. Your first bullet-point, as I'm sure you know, is not even all that theoretical; see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-corruption_campaign_under_Xi_Jinping#Critical_analysis for (what many have argued to be) a similar case in the real world.
– ruakh
Apr 3 at 0:54
2
Your first bullet point: Or create public resentment towards a minority, or the press, or other side of the political spectrum. And then the gullible become assassins.
– mahboudz
yesterday
add a comment |
Suppose, as per the premise of the question, that the public is fond of sponsoring assassinations. A clever corrupt politician could use that to his own advantage, and the nation's detriment:
A politician could weaponize the state's propaganda system to mold public resentment toward prominent reformers, so that the gullible public could be wrongly persuaded to fund assassins to murder the reformers themselves.
Organized assassination markets would justify using emergency powers to create a temporary, or even permanent, police state, which could be used to crush such markets, and oppress and murder reformers.
Since it's an assassination market system, it would favor buyers with more money. So a wealthy criminal would have money to spend, whereas the honest poor would not. Therefore such a market would tend to best reward assassins employed by the ruthlessly wealthy to murder reformers.
3
+1. Your first bullet-point, as I'm sure you know, is not even all that theoretical; see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-corruption_campaign_under_Xi_Jinping#Critical_analysis for (what many have argued to be) a similar case in the real world.
– ruakh
Apr 3 at 0:54
2
Your first bullet point: Or create public resentment towards a minority, or the press, or other side of the political spectrum. And then the gullible become assassins.
– mahboudz
yesterday
add a comment |
Suppose, as per the premise of the question, that the public is fond of sponsoring assassinations. A clever corrupt politician could use that to his own advantage, and the nation's detriment:
A politician could weaponize the state's propaganda system to mold public resentment toward prominent reformers, so that the gullible public could be wrongly persuaded to fund assassins to murder the reformers themselves.
Organized assassination markets would justify using emergency powers to create a temporary, or even permanent, police state, which could be used to crush such markets, and oppress and murder reformers.
Since it's an assassination market system, it would favor buyers with more money. So a wealthy criminal would have money to spend, whereas the honest poor would not. Therefore such a market would tend to best reward assassins employed by the ruthlessly wealthy to murder reformers.
Suppose, as per the premise of the question, that the public is fond of sponsoring assassinations. A clever corrupt politician could use that to his own advantage, and the nation's detriment:
A politician could weaponize the state's propaganda system to mold public resentment toward prominent reformers, so that the gullible public could be wrongly persuaded to fund assassins to murder the reformers themselves.
Organized assassination markets would justify using emergency powers to create a temporary, or even permanent, police state, which could be used to crush such markets, and oppress and murder reformers.
Since it's an assassination market system, it would favor buyers with more money. So a wealthy criminal would have money to spend, whereas the honest poor would not. Therefore such a market would tend to best reward assassins employed by the ruthlessly wealthy to murder reformers.
edited 2 days ago
answered Apr 2 at 20:43
agcagc
5,8661652
5,8661652
3
+1. Your first bullet-point, as I'm sure you know, is not even all that theoretical; see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-corruption_campaign_under_Xi_Jinping#Critical_analysis for (what many have argued to be) a similar case in the real world.
– ruakh
Apr 3 at 0:54
2
Your first bullet point: Or create public resentment towards a minority, or the press, or other side of the political spectrum. And then the gullible become assassins.
– mahboudz
yesterday
add a comment |
3
+1. Your first bullet-point, as I'm sure you know, is not even all that theoretical; see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-corruption_campaign_under_Xi_Jinping#Critical_analysis for (what many have argued to be) a similar case in the real world.
– ruakh
Apr 3 at 0:54
2
Your first bullet point: Or create public resentment towards a minority, or the press, or other side of the political spectrum. And then the gullible become assassins.
– mahboudz
yesterday
3
3
+1. Your first bullet-point, as I'm sure you know, is not even all that theoretical; see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-corruption_campaign_under_Xi_Jinping#Critical_analysis for (what many have argued to be) a similar case in the real world.
– ruakh
Apr 3 at 0:54
+1. Your first bullet-point, as I'm sure you know, is not even all that theoretical; see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-corruption_campaign_under_Xi_Jinping#Critical_analysis for (what many have argued to be) a similar case in the real world.
– ruakh
Apr 3 at 0:54
2
2
Your first bullet point: Or create public resentment towards a minority, or the press, or other side of the political spectrum. And then the gullible become assassins.
– mahboudz
yesterday
Your first bullet point: Or create public resentment towards a minority, or the press, or other side of the political spectrum. And then the gullible become assassins.
– mahboudz
yesterday
add a comment |
Apart from whether your approach would be conducive to justice or a better political system or even just any improvement whatsoever — it will not work.
Do you think you are the first one who has the idea to kill the president or other politicians? They are quite well protected, and after the first few incidents the protection will be watertight.
But the most important obstacle to your strategy is that a change in leadership in a democracy does not have a great impact.1 In fact, this is a simple and effective litmus test for a true democracy: Does a change in leadership trigger a systemic crisis? We don't know what will happen in North Korea when Kim-Jong un dies in office(s). By contrast we know quite exactly what will happen in the U.S. when Trump dies in office: The vice president will become president.2Nothing much will happen, and certainly no systemic crisis.
A system with properly working political institutions and true elections will simply replace the leader according to the lawful rules and procedures, and go on with business.
If you want a quip: In a democracy, functions are filled with people. In a dictatorship, people are filled with functions.
The politicians have been voted into office by free elections; they are in office because many people wanted them to be. What makes you think the next election will suddenly result in a fundamentally different leadership? To change the general make-up of the political class, you must change the outcomes of elections; to do that, you need to change public opinion.
1 Whether through violence or election. The latter has been a sometimes painful experience for members of either big political camp after their respective candidate had become president. A president is less important than some people, including the presidents themselves sometimes, tend to think. Cynics say that's because the real power lies elsewhere anyway; I'd argue that the balance of power and the legal framework limits what can be done by an activist president; and when one steps back one sees that the positions are not very extreme to begin with. That's not too surprising given that a large part of the population voted for them.
2 Thanks to nasch for the correction.
3
The 25th amendment states "In case of the removal of the President from office or of his death or resignation, the Vice President shall become President." So the VP becomes not acting president, but president. And I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "a new president will be elected" but there is no special election held after the President's death. The next scheduled election happens as normal, and this could result in the re-election of the person who assumed the presidency.
– nasch
Apr 2 at 21:27
@nasch i.e. things proceed basically how they would have with the predecessor
– Caleth
Apr 2 at 23:06
Maybe, maybe not, it's entirely up to the new president.
– nasch
2 days ago
"they are in office because many people wanted them to be" No, because there are often only 2 choices both I would never vote for, but a decision has to be made. The people want an honest person, but are only give 2 choices neither of which has to be good, honest, or etc. Anyone else who runs doesn't stand a chance because they don't have the financial backing to get noticed so people vote for them.
– cybernard
2 days ago
@cybernard Just because you specifically do not like the two or so choices available does not mean there are not many other people who do like at least one of those choices. (Whether those choices are actually suitable candidates, viewed objectively, is a separate matter, of course.)
– JAB
yesterday
add a comment |
Apart from whether your approach would be conducive to justice or a better political system or even just any improvement whatsoever — it will not work.
Do you think you are the first one who has the idea to kill the president or other politicians? They are quite well protected, and after the first few incidents the protection will be watertight.
But the most important obstacle to your strategy is that a change in leadership in a democracy does not have a great impact.1 In fact, this is a simple and effective litmus test for a true democracy: Does a change in leadership trigger a systemic crisis? We don't know what will happen in North Korea when Kim-Jong un dies in office(s). By contrast we know quite exactly what will happen in the U.S. when Trump dies in office: The vice president will become president.2Nothing much will happen, and certainly no systemic crisis.
A system with properly working political institutions and true elections will simply replace the leader according to the lawful rules and procedures, and go on with business.
If you want a quip: In a democracy, functions are filled with people. In a dictatorship, people are filled with functions.
The politicians have been voted into office by free elections; they are in office because many people wanted them to be. What makes you think the next election will suddenly result in a fundamentally different leadership? To change the general make-up of the political class, you must change the outcomes of elections; to do that, you need to change public opinion.
1 Whether through violence or election. The latter has been a sometimes painful experience for members of either big political camp after their respective candidate had become president. A president is less important than some people, including the presidents themselves sometimes, tend to think. Cynics say that's because the real power lies elsewhere anyway; I'd argue that the balance of power and the legal framework limits what can be done by an activist president; and when one steps back one sees that the positions are not very extreme to begin with. That's not too surprising given that a large part of the population voted for them.
2 Thanks to nasch for the correction.
3
The 25th amendment states "In case of the removal of the President from office or of his death or resignation, the Vice President shall become President." So the VP becomes not acting president, but president. And I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "a new president will be elected" but there is no special election held after the President's death. The next scheduled election happens as normal, and this could result in the re-election of the person who assumed the presidency.
– nasch
Apr 2 at 21:27
@nasch i.e. things proceed basically how they would have with the predecessor
– Caleth
Apr 2 at 23:06
Maybe, maybe not, it's entirely up to the new president.
– nasch
2 days ago
"they are in office because many people wanted them to be" No, because there are often only 2 choices both I would never vote for, but a decision has to be made. The people want an honest person, but are only give 2 choices neither of which has to be good, honest, or etc. Anyone else who runs doesn't stand a chance because they don't have the financial backing to get noticed so people vote for them.
– cybernard
2 days ago
@cybernard Just because you specifically do not like the two or so choices available does not mean there are not many other people who do like at least one of those choices. (Whether those choices are actually suitable candidates, viewed objectively, is a separate matter, of course.)
– JAB
yesterday
add a comment |
Apart from whether your approach would be conducive to justice or a better political system or even just any improvement whatsoever — it will not work.
Do you think you are the first one who has the idea to kill the president or other politicians? They are quite well protected, and after the first few incidents the protection will be watertight.
But the most important obstacle to your strategy is that a change in leadership in a democracy does not have a great impact.1 In fact, this is a simple and effective litmus test for a true democracy: Does a change in leadership trigger a systemic crisis? We don't know what will happen in North Korea when Kim-Jong un dies in office(s). By contrast we know quite exactly what will happen in the U.S. when Trump dies in office: The vice president will become president.2Nothing much will happen, and certainly no systemic crisis.
A system with properly working political institutions and true elections will simply replace the leader according to the lawful rules and procedures, and go on with business.
If you want a quip: In a democracy, functions are filled with people. In a dictatorship, people are filled with functions.
The politicians have been voted into office by free elections; they are in office because many people wanted them to be. What makes you think the next election will suddenly result in a fundamentally different leadership? To change the general make-up of the political class, you must change the outcomes of elections; to do that, you need to change public opinion.
1 Whether through violence or election. The latter has been a sometimes painful experience for members of either big political camp after their respective candidate had become president. A president is less important than some people, including the presidents themselves sometimes, tend to think. Cynics say that's because the real power lies elsewhere anyway; I'd argue that the balance of power and the legal framework limits what can be done by an activist president; and when one steps back one sees that the positions are not very extreme to begin with. That's not too surprising given that a large part of the population voted for them.
2 Thanks to nasch for the correction.
Apart from whether your approach would be conducive to justice or a better political system or even just any improvement whatsoever — it will not work.
Do you think you are the first one who has the idea to kill the president or other politicians? They are quite well protected, and after the first few incidents the protection will be watertight.
But the most important obstacle to your strategy is that a change in leadership in a democracy does not have a great impact.1 In fact, this is a simple and effective litmus test for a true democracy: Does a change in leadership trigger a systemic crisis? We don't know what will happen in North Korea when Kim-Jong un dies in office(s). By contrast we know quite exactly what will happen in the U.S. when Trump dies in office: The vice president will become president.2Nothing much will happen, and certainly no systemic crisis.
A system with properly working political institutions and true elections will simply replace the leader according to the lawful rules and procedures, and go on with business.
If you want a quip: In a democracy, functions are filled with people. In a dictatorship, people are filled with functions.
The politicians have been voted into office by free elections; they are in office because many people wanted them to be. What makes you think the next election will suddenly result in a fundamentally different leadership? To change the general make-up of the political class, you must change the outcomes of elections; to do that, you need to change public opinion.
1 Whether through violence or election. The latter has been a sometimes painful experience for members of either big political camp after their respective candidate had become president. A president is less important than some people, including the presidents themselves sometimes, tend to think. Cynics say that's because the real power lies elsewhere anyway; I'd argue that the balance of power and the legal framework limits what can be done by an activist president; and when one steps back one sees that the positions are not very extreme to begin with. That's not too surprising given that a large part of the population voted for them.
2 Thanks to nasch for the correction.
edited yesterday
answered Apr 2 at 15:33
Peter A. SchneiderPeter A. Schneider
2,565819
2,565819
3
The 25th amendment states "In case of the removal of the President from office or of his death or resignation, the Vice President shall become President." So the VP becomes not acting president, but president. And I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "a new president will be elected" but there is no special election held after the President's death. The next scheduled election happens as normal, and this could result in the re-election of the person who assumed the presidency.
– nasch
Apr 2 at 21:27
@nasch i.e. things proceed basically how they would have with the predecessor
– Caleth
Apr 2 at 23:06
Maybe, maybe not, it's entirely up to the new president.
– nasch
2 days ago
"they are in office because many people wanted them to be" No, because there are often only 2 choices both I would never vote for, but a decision has to be made. The people want an honest person, but are only give 2 choices neither of which has to be good, honest, or etc. Anyone else who runs doesn't stand a chance because they don't have the financial backing to get noticed so people vote for them.
– cybernard
2 days ago
@cybernard Just because you specifically do not like the two or so choices available does not mean there are not many other people who do like at least one of those choices. (Whether those choices are actually suitable candidates, viewed objectively, is a separate matter, of course.)
– JAB
yesterday
add a comment |
3
The 25th amendment states "In case of the removal of the President from office or of his death or resignation, the Vice President shall become President." So the VP becomes not acting president, but president. And I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "a new president will be elected" but there is no special election held after the President's death. The next scheduled election happens as normal, and this could result in the re-election of the person who assumed the presidency.
– nasch
Apr 2 at 21:27
@nasch i.e. things proceed basically how they would have with the predecessor
– Caleth
Apr 2 at 23:06
Maybe, maybe not, it's entirely up to the new president.
– nasch
2 days ago
"they are in office because many people wanted them to be" No, because there are often only 2 choices both I would never vote for, but a decision has to be made. The people want an honest person, but are only give 2 choices neither of which has to be good, honest, or etc. Anyone else who runs doesn't stand a chance because they don't have the financial backing to get noticed so people vote for them.
– cybernard
2 days ago
@cybernard Just because you specifically do not like the two or so choices available does not mean there are not many other people who do like at least one of those choices. (Whether those choices are actually suitable candidates, viewed objectively, is a separate matter, of course.)
– JAB
yesterday
3
3
The 25th amendment states "In case of the removal of the President from office or of his death or resignation, the Vice President shall become President." So the VP becomes not acting president, but president. And I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "a new president will be elected" but there is no special election held after the President's death. The next scheduled election happens as normal, and this could result in the re-election of the person who assumed the presidency.
– nasch
Apr 2 at 21:27
The 25th amendment states "In case of the removal of the President from office or of his death or resignation, the Vice President shall become President." So the VP becomes not acting president, but president. And I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "a new president will be elected" but there is no special election held after the President's death. The next scheduled election happens as normal, and this could result in the re-election of the person who assumed the presidency.
– nasch
Apr 2 at 21:27
@nasch i.e. things proceed basically how they would have with the predecessor
– Caleth
Apr 2 at 23:06
@nasch i.e. things proceed basically how they would have with the predecessor
– Caleth
Apr 2 at 23:06
Maybe, maybe not, it's entirely up to the new president.
– nasch
2 days ago
Maybe, maybe not, it's entirely up to the new president.
– nasch
2 days ago
"they are in office because many people wanted them to be" No, because there are often only 2 choices both I would never vote for, but a decision has to be made. The people want an honest person, but are only give 2 choices neither of which has to be good, honest, or etc. Anyone else who runs doesn't stand a chance because they don't have the financial backing to get noticed so people vote for them.
– cybernard
2 days ago
"they are in office because many people wanted them to be" No, because there are often only 2 choices both I would never vote for, but a decision has to be made. The people want an honest person, but are only give 2 choices neither of which has to be good, honest, or etc. Anyone else who runs doesn't stand a chance because they don't have the financial backing to get noticed so people vote for them.
– cybernard
2 days ago
@cybernard Just because you specifically do not like the two or so choices available does not mean there are not many other people who do like at least one of those choices. (Whether those choices are actually suitable candidates, viewed objectively, is a separate matter, of course.)
– JAB
yesterday
@cybernard Just because you specifically do not like the two or so choices available does not mean there are not many other people who do like at least one of those choices. (Whether those choices are actually suitable candidates, viewed objectively, is a separate matter, of course.)
– JAB
yesterday
add a comment |
Letting aside the ethics, who gets to decide who is corrupt?
Taking the USA's political state since 2015-2016, i.e. the last POTUS election we have:
- a large proportion of US voters who believe Hillary Clinton is corrupt.
- a large proportion of US voters who believe Donald Trump is corrupt.
It could be that they are both corrupt. Or that neither is corrupt.
What would be an objective way to determine who is worthy or not? How would it fit with notions like rule of law or institutions?
What if the hit man's employer are not so much honest citizens as, say gangsters wanting to throttle an excessive anti-corruption drive? What if a prime minister/president, aware of the risks, launches very aggressive police actions, essentially to defend themselves? What if, after a successful assassination of a part-popular, but divisive, politician, his supporters riot?
Unless, of course, this decision is taken at a governmental level in which case democracies have all sorts of way to impeach or indicate a loss of confidence in a government and don't need this suggestion. Which smacks of vigilante justice.
Couple a legislated removal from office with fact-driven adversarial prosecutions of the supposed corruption afterwards and you have most of the advantages of your suggestion, in an entirely legal manner.
I'm not sure how bringing up gangsters is relevant in a discussion on well-intentioned morality or lack thereof of an act; gangsters have people bad for their business removed anyway, for selfish reasons, it's a red herring.
– millimoose
2 days ago
3
It's not a red herring at all. It's exactly the same violence if I send my boys to rub you out, or I outspend you in court. Men with guns will show up to coerce you either way. Don't like that? Pay some men with guns to defend you. Problem is that during the evaluation process, the area is not really attractive for economic growth. Also, you cannot avoid "gangsters" in this scenario, uncertain times are how 'gangsters' become respected citizens. Al Capone's syphilis might be the difference between him and Joe Kennedy.
– chiggsy
2 days ago
3
@millimoose How is hitman unrelated to gangster again? Plus, some other posters made the same link to the most natural customers of hitmen are people in the crime scene. There have been a number of cases over time where inconvenient public figures, often journalists, but sometimes politicians, have been rubbed out by the mob, mostly in countries with immature democratic institutions. And, in a context of accepted political assassinations, would mob hits not be less obvious? So, what's your point, exactly?
– Italian Philosopher
yesterday
add a comment |
Letting aside the ethics, who gets to decide who is corrupt?
Taking the USA's political state since 2015-2016, i.e. the last POTUS election we have:
- a large proportion of US voters who believe Hillary Clinton is corrupt.
- a large proportion of US voters who believe Donald Trump is corrupt.
It could be that they are both corrupt. Or that neither is corrupt.
What would be an objective way to determine who is worthy or not? How would it fit with notions like rule of law or institutions?
What if the hit man's employer are not so much honest citizens as, say gangsters wanting to throttle an excessive anti-corruption drive? What if a prime minister/president, aware of the risks, launches very aggressive police actions, essentially to defend themselves? What if, after a successful assassination of a part-popular, but divisive, politician, his supporters riot?
Unless, of course, this decision is taken at a governmental level in which case democracies have all sorts of way to impeach or indicate a loss of confidence in a government and don't need this suggestion. Which smacks of vigilante justice.
Couple a legislated removal from office with fact-driven adversarial prosecutions of the supposed corruption afterwards and you have most of the advantages of your suggestion, in an entirely legal manner.
I'm not sure how bringing up gangsters is relevant in a discussion on well-intentioned morality or lack thereof of an act; gangsters have people bad for their business removed anyway, for selfish reasons, it's a red herring.
– millimoose
2 days ago
3
It's not a red herring at all. It's exactly the same violence if I send my boys to rub you out, or I outspend you in court. Men with guns will show up to coerce you either way. Don't like that? Pay some men with guns to defend you. Problem is that during the evaluation process, the area is not really attractive for economic growth. Also, you cannot avoid "gangsters" in this scenario, uncertain times are how 'gangsters' become respected citizens. Al Capone's syphilis might be the difference between him and Joe Kennedy.
– chiggsy
2 days ago
3
@millimoose How is hitman unrelated to gangster again? Plus, some other posters made the same link to the most natural customers of hitmen are people in the crime scene. There have been a number of cases over time where inconvenient public figures, often journalists, but sometimes politicians, have been rubbed out by the mob, mostly in countries with immature democratic institutions. And, in a context of accepted political assassinations, would mob hits not be less obvious? So, what's your point, exactly?
– Italian Philosopher
yesterday
add a comment |
Letting aside the ethics, who gets to decide who is corrupt?
Taking the USA's political state since 2015-2016, i.e. the last POTUS election we have:
- a large proportion of US voters who believe Hillary Clinton is corrupt.
- a large proportion of US voters who believe Donald Trump is corrupt.
It could be that they are both corrupt. Or that neither is corrupt.
What would be an objective way to determine who is worthy or not? How would it fit with notions like rule of law or institutions?
What if the hit man's employer are not so much honest citizens as, say gangsters wanting to throttle an excessive anti-corruption drive? What if a prime minister/president, aware of the risks, launches very aggressive police actions, essentially to defend themselves? What if, after a successful assassination of a part-popular, but divisive, politician, his supporters riot?
Unless, of course, this decision is taken at a governmental level in which case democracies have all sorts of way to impeach or indicate a loss of confidence in a government and don't need this suggestion. Which smacks of vigilante justice.
Couple a legislated removal from office with fact-driven adversarial prosecutions of the supposed corruption afterwards and you have most of the advantages of your suggestion, in an entirely legal manner.
Letting aside the ethics, who gets to decide who is corrupt?
Taking the USA's political state since 2015-2016, i.e. the last POTUS election we have:
- a large proportion of US voters who believe Hillary Clinton is corrupt.
- a large proportion of US voters who believe Donald Trump is corrupt.
It could be that they are both corrupt. Or that neither is corrupt.
What would be an objective way to determine who is worthy or not? How would it fit with notions like rule of law or institutions?
What if the hit man's employer are not so much honest citizens as, say gangsters wanting to throttle an excessive anti-corruption drive? What if a prime minister/president, aware of the risks, launches very aggressive police actions, essentially to defend themselves? What if, after a successful assassination of a part-popular, but divisive, politician, his supporters riot?
Unless, of course, this decision is taken at a governmental level in which case democracies have all sorts of way to impeach or indicate a loss of confidence in a government and don't need this suggestion. Which smacks of vigilante justice.
Couple a legislated removal from office with fact-driven adversarial prosecutions of the supposed corruption afterwards and you have most of the advantages of your suggestion, in an entirely legal manner.
edited 2 days ago
answered Apr 3 at 1:54
Italian PhilosopherItalian Philosopher
1,002314
1,002314
I'm not sure how bringing up gangsters is relevant in a discussion on well-intentioned morality or lack thereof of an act; gangsters have people bad for their business removed anyway, for selfish reasons, it's a red herring.
– millimoose
2 days ago
3
It's not a red herring at all. It's exactly the same violence if I send my boys to rub you out, or I outspend you in court. Men with guns will show up to coerce you either way. Don't like that? Pay some men with guns to defend you. Problem is that during the evaluation process, the area is not really attractive for economic growth. Also, you cannot avoid "gangsters" in this scenario, uncertain times are how 'gangsters' become respected citizens. Al Capone's syphilis might be the difference between him and Joe Kennedy.
– chiggsy
2 days ago
3
@millimoose How is hitman unrelated to gangster again? Plus, some other posters made the same link to the most natural customers of hitmen are people in the crime scene. There have been a number of cases over time where inconvenient public figures, often journalists, but sometimes politicians, have been rubbed out by the mob, mostly in countries with immature democratic institutions. And, in a context of accepted political assassinations, would mob hits not be less obvious? So, what's your point, exactly?
– Italian Philosopher
yesterday
add a comment |
I'm not sure how bringing up gangsters is relevant in a discussion on well-intentioned morality or lack thereof of an act; gangsters have people bad for their business removed anyway, for selfish reasons, it's a red herring.
– millimoose
2 days ago
3
It's not a red herring at all. It's exactly the same violence if I send my boys to rub you out, or I outspend you in court. Men with guns will show up to coerce you either way. Don't like that? Pay some men with guns to defend you. Problem is that during the evaluation process, the area is not really attractive for economic growth. Also, you cannot avoid "gangsters" in this scenario, uncertain times are how 'gangsters' become respected citizens. Al Capone's syphilis might be the difference between him and Joe Kennedy.
– chiggsy
2 days ago
3
@millimoose How is hitman unrelated to gangster again? Plus, some other posters made the same link to the most natural customers of hitmen are people in the crime scene. There have been a number of cases over time where inconvenient public figures, often journalists, but sometimes politicians, have been rubbed out by the mob, mostly in countries with immature democratic institutions. And, in a context of accepted political assassinations, would mob hits not be less obvious? So, what's your point, exactly?
– Italian Philosopher
yesterday
I'm not sure how bringing up gangsters is relevant in a discussion on well-intentioned morality or lack thereof of an act; gangsters have people bad for their business removed anyway, for selfish reasons, it's a red herring.
– millimoose
2 days ago
I'm not sure how bringing up gangsters is relevant in a discussion on well-intentioned morality or lack thereof of an act; gangsters have people bad for their business removed anyway, for selfish reasons, it's a red herring.
– millimoose
2 days ago
3
3
It's not a red herring at all. It's exactly the same violence if I send my boys to rub you out, or I outspend you in court. Men with guns will show up to coerce you either way. Don't like that? Pay some men with guns to defend you. Problem is that during the evaluation process, the area is not really attractive for economic growth. Also, you cannot avoid "gangsters" in this scenario, uncertain times are how 'gangsters' become respected citizens. Al Capone's syphilis might be the difference between him and Joe Kennedy.
– chiggsy
2 days ago
It's not a red herring at all. It's exactly the same violence if I send my boys to rub you out, or I outspend you in court. Men with guns will show up to coerce you either way. Don't like that? Pay some men with guns to defend you. Problem is that during the evaluation process, the area is not really attractive for economic growth. Also, you cannot avoid "gangsters" in this scenario, uncertain times are how 'gangsters' become respected citizens. Al Capone's syphilis might be the difference between him and Joe Kennedy.
– chiggsy
2 days ago
3
3
@millimoose How is hitman unrelated to gangster again? Plus, some other posters made the same link to the most natural customers of hitmen are people in the crime scene. There have been a number of cases over time where inconvenient public figures, often journalists, but sometimes politicians, have been rubbed out by the mob, mostly in countries with immature democratic institutions. And, in a context of accepted political assassinations, would mob hits not be less obvious? So, what's your point, exactly?
– Italian Philosopher
yesterday
@millimoose How is hitman unrelated to gangster again? Plus, some other posters made the same link to the most natural customers of hitmen are people in the crime scene. There have been a number of cases over time where inconvenient public figures, often journalists, but sometimes politicians, have been rubbed out by the mob, mostly in countries with immature democratic institutions. And, in a context of accepted political assassinations, would mob hits not be less obvious? So, what's your point, exactly?
– Italian Philosopher
yesterday
add a comment |
The question is titled:
Why is it a bad idea to hire a hitman [to kill corrupt] politicians?
Well, from a moral standpoint, it's wrong. It depends on your yardstick for corruption, but let's say as you imply it's some run of the mill embezzling/defruading the state.
You've implied a benchmark of:
whenever politicians became too shameless in their corruption schemes,
..implying financial misconduct.
That's an abuse of power and generally considering to be "wrong" (in the ethical sense). However, if we look at this on the basis of first principles: If I steal ten dollars from you, and you then come and kill me (hiring someone is more or the less ethically the same thing), who's committed the greater wrong, me or you?
I think you'd be hard pressed to find someonewho argues that stealing money is ethically worse than killing someone - it's disproportionate. The key attribute of retributive jsutice is that it is proportionate. To quote Wikipedia:
Retributive justice is a theory of justice that holds that the best
response to a crime is a punishment proportional to the offense,
inflicted because the offender deserves the punishment. Prevention of
future crimes (deterrence) or rehabilitation of the offender are not
considered in determining such punishments. The theory holds that when
an offender breaks the law, justice requires that he or she suffer in
return. Retribution is different from revenge because retributive
justice is directed only at wrongs, has inherent limits, is not
personal and involves no pleasure at the suffering of others[1] and
employs procedural standards.[2][3] Classical texts advocating the
retributive view include De Legibus (1st century BC), Kant's Science
of Right[4] (1790), and Hegel's Philosophy of Right[5] (1821).
From an ethical standpoint, it seems evident that hiring a hitman to kill a corrupt politician is both unjust and unethical - to a certain degree. There's also an inherent problem with your criterion:
too shameless in their corruption schemes
Your benchmark here is how visible this corruption is, or more precisely, how corrupt the individual is perceived to be. This is problematic. Let's discuss the ethical reasons first, then move on to why pragmatically this is even worse.
So the next question is: How shameless is "too shameless" ? What amount of money or kind of corruption schemes are objectively worth "sending a message over"? If, as I think you will agree, stealing ten dollars from the government not worth hiring a hitman over, what figure is ? Ten thousand dollars, one hundred thousand? What price do you put on a human life? Who gets to deem that the politician is too shameless?
The problem with this unilateral approach is that a lot of people might not agree with your methods, or your reasoning. Look at Lee Harvey Oswald, John Wilkes Booth or Mark David Chapman: Complete nutters the lot of them. How do you verify when you embark on this course of action that you yourself aren't just, yourself, a complete nutter? Unlike a functioning judicial process, there's no due process or checks and balances. Looking at today's political climate, there are probably a lot of people who would feel justified in taking that action into their own hands, even though, their criterion for action might not meet the same standards as yours.
Whilst I am no Trump fan, I certainly don't believe he should be assassinated. There are plenty of people in the U.S who do and I am certainly not comfortable with their ethical standards because if those same principles were applied, they would feel justified in killing a lot of people I would consider innocent, or at least not worthy of summary extrajudicial execution.
Can you imagine what it would be like if every SJW, right wing blogger and Youtube commenter felt they were justified in taking the lives of people who had transgressed their imaginary rulebook?
We need to also ask whilst on the topic of personal culpability, what is a politician? At the most abstract, I submit it's somebody who influences or attempts to influence the body politic. So by killing someone you perceive to be corrupt, or a lizard person, or whatever, you are in fact attempting to influence the political process. So if you hire a hitman to kill whoever, isn't somebody else justified in viewing you as corrupt and hiring a hitman to take you out?
These are just some quick moral arguments against it off the top off my head. There's a far greater problem with this notion. It doesn't really work.
First of all, let's examine your proposition:
someone hired a hitman that eliminates a few important figures,
basically sending a message that most of the people are thinking: "We
can see what you're doing and we won't just stay and do nothing"? In
my very naive opinion, this will send a warning message to any future
person occupying that role that they shouldn't fall into corruption
schemes or at least not as much.
Well, for starters, I don't think the politician in question will be falling into any corruption schemes anymore, assuming that the hitman is successful. So what message are you really sending? And to whom? The guy's dead.
So how are you getting your message across? No doubt if the politician is visibly corrupt enough, people might suspect it had something to do with it but there's no clear cut guarantee. Declaring some manifesto alongside it only increases your risk of getting caught.
Aside from your hitman probably having something to say about that; what guarantee do you have that either this corrupt cabal or the general populace is going to take you seriously? It's a nice daydream, but I don't think it really works out that way in practice.
There's another fatal flaw with your plan: Darwinism.
You see, by your stated criterion, you're only targeting the most visibly corrupt politicians. Let's assume you have a lot of money and a really good hitman. What happens in the long run? You don't kill all the corrupt politicians, you just kill the visible, and, by extension, the inept ones. That just ends up leaving the ones who excel at being corrupt. This leaves you worse off than where you started. This happens a lot in nature.
For example, we've possessed the genetic weaponry necessary to wipe out the malarial mosquito for sometime. The reason why we haven't done it, is that even though malaria kills a lot of people is that we don't know exactly what else it kills and what effects might result.
We might inadvertantly lift the lid on another disease that's even worse. One of these politicians might be corrupt but be keeping someone even worse from rising up the food-chain.
You see, for politicians to become so shameless unaccountable to their electorate, it doesn't just imply that they themselves have taken advantage of the government. What it usually means is that the institutions of government - the complex systems and ecosystems of government and governance have themselves broken down. It's quite easy for people to point to a divisive figure like say, Donald Trump, and say "It's all his fault" but the reality is that these people are the symptoms of the problem, not the cause.
The United States has had real trouble just functioning for a long time, and its democratic institutions are in many ways fundamentally broken. The causes of this are legion, but can basically be summed up with their culture and history has directly determined the outcome they have right now. Likewise, the failure of institutions and democracy in Hungary or Poland or Bulgaria (or wherever you are) aren't the result of just one person but a systemic failure. You can't cure this with a bullet - people have tried.
This leads to my last point: Unintended consequences.
We don't know what forces might be unleashed by a single assassination. Look at Archduke Ferdinand. He was killed because he was a symbol of the Austro-Hungarian domination of the Balkans. Princip believed that by assassinating him he was furthering the course of Serbian freedom. Ironically Ferdinand was a reformer, and they had a better chance under Ferdinand.
What happened instead is that the vast machinery of Europe, having almost stepped back from the brink of war, was thrown into four years of wanton and unnecessary bloodshed. The Serbian state was nearly utterly destroyed. It set the preconditions of the Second World War which was the most destructive war in history. The consequences of that single action set of a chain of events that led to the deaths of up to 100 million people.
Now maybe assassinating Viktor Orban or Justin Trudeau or whoever wouldn't set off such a conflagration, but here's the thing: you just don't know. If you paid someone to pull the trigger, all that blood is essentially on your hands.
I could go on to list all the times this hasn't worked or how internal power struggles in crumbling democracies often fail to deliver an improvement in living conditions and civil rights for the people.
The Arab Spring is a rather depressing reminder of how even well intentioned grassroots attempts at overthrowing tyranny can lead to both its entrenchment and expansion - look at Eygypt, Syria and Libya.
I think you'll also find that decapitating the leadership might effectively, most systems are somewhat resilient to it. We can look the Taliban, Al-Qaeda for examples on how despite numerous attacks/assassinations of leaders, they remain just as capable of carrying on fighting as long as their support networks are in place.
So going back to incentives. I mentioned before that in the event you described wasn't worth killing someone over. So when is it?
Let's consider briefly the Trolley Dilemma.
You see a runaway trolley moving toward five tied-up (or otherwise
incapacitated) people lying on the tracks. You are standing next to a
lever that controls a switch. If you pull the lever, the trolley will
be redirected onto a side track, and the five people on the main track
will be saved. However, there is a single person lying on the side
track. You have two options:
Do nothing and allow the trolley to kill the five people on the main
track.
Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where
it will kill one person.
Which is the more ethical option?
Another commenter brought up the example of how members of the German military tried to assassinate Hitler (I believe they tried a couple of times) and instigate a coup.
Intriguingly, someone else brought up Duterte.
There's only an ethical and pragmatic case to kill a politician where there is a clear threat to the lives of people under the rule of that person - where you can make a clear case that intervening would stop this person killing or enacting policies that would directly and explicitly result in killing innocent people. Killing Hitler might have shortened the Second World War and prevented part of the Holocaust.
In the case of Duterte, who has openly advocated and directly enabled the extrajudicial killings of tens of thousands of people, there is in fact an ethical, and perhaps, pragmatic case to intervene. This is clear and distinct from policies by national leaders who have decided to go to war in what they perceive to be the national interest, such as Russia or the United States.
These aren't ideal either, but quite distinct from using murder as an instrument of social policy. I submit that hiring a hitman to kill a single person differs only in magnitude to these crimes however, not only is it inethical in the scenario you are talking about, but from a practical standpoint, it's likely to be ineffective - and therefore even more unforgivable.
The best way to fight corruption is to build strong and empower strong democratic institutions with respect for the rule of law. This is probably cold comfort to someone living in Eastern Europe where corruption and illiberalism has been the norm for a very long time.
N.B. Please forgive what is a rather rough draft as I am procrastinating from programming at 4am. That said, probably a bad idea to kill politicians.
add a comment |
The question is titled:
Why is it a bad idea to hire a hitman [to kill corrupt] politicians?
Well, from a moral standpoint, it's wrong. It depends on your yardstick for corruption, but let's say as you imply it's some run of the mill embezzling/defruading the state.
You've implied a benchmark of:
whenever politicians became too shameless in their corruption schemes,
..implying financial misconduct.
That's an abuse of power and generally considering to be "wrong" (in the ethical sense). However, if we look at this on the basis of first principles: If I steal ten dollars from you, and you then come and kill me (hiring someone is more or the less ethically the same thing), who's committed the greater wrong, me or you?
I think you'd be hard pressed to find someonewho argues that stealing money is ethically worse than killing someone - it's disproportionate. The key attribute of retributive jsutice is that it is proportionate. To quote Wikipedia:
Retributive justice is a theory of justice that holds that the best
response to a crime is a punishment proportional to the offense,
inflicted because the offender deserves the punishment. Prevention of
future crimes (deterrence) or rehabilitation of the offender are not
considered in determining such punishments. The theory holds that when
an offender breaks the law, justice requires that he or she suffer in
return. Retribution is different from revenge because retributive
justice is directed only at wrongs, has inherent limits, is not
personal and involves no pleasure at the suffering of others[1] and
employs procedural standards.[2][3] Classical texts advocating the
retributive view include De Legibus (1st century BC), Kant's Science
of Right[4] (1790), and Hegel's Philosophy of Right[5] (1821).
From an ethical standpoint, it seems evident that hiring a hitman to kill a corrupt politician is both unjust and unethical - to a certain degree. There's also an inherent problem with your criterion:
too shameless in their corruption schemes
Your benchmark here is how visible this corruption is, or more precisely, how corrupt the individual is perceived to be. This is problematic. Let's discuss the ethical reasons first, then move on to why pragmatically this is even worse.
So the next question is: How shameless is "too shameless" ? What amount of money or kind of corruption schemes are objectively worth "sending a message over"? If, as I think you will agree, stealing ten dollars from the government not worth hiring a hitman over, what figure is ? Ten thousand dollars, one hundred thousand? What price do you put on a human life? Who gets to deem that the politician is too shameless?
The problem with this unilateral approach is that a lot of people might not agree with your methods, or your reasoning. Look at Lee Harvey Oswald, John Wilkes Booth or Mark David Chapman: Complete nutters the lot of them. How do you verify when you embark on this course of action that you yourself aren't just, yourself, a complete nutter? Unlike a functioning judicial process, there's no due process or checks and balances. Looking at today's political climate, there are probably a lot of people who would feel justified in taking that action into their own hands, even though, their criterion for action might not meet the same standards as yours.
Whilst I am no Trump fan, I certainly don't believe he should be assassinated. There are plenty of people in the U.S who do and I am certainly not comfortable with their ethical standards because if those same principles were applied, they would feel justified in killing a lot of people I would consider innocent, or at least not worthy of summary extrajudicial execution.
Can you imagine what it would be like if every SJW, right wing blogger and Youtube commenter felt they were justified in taking the lives of people who had transgressed their imaginary rulebook?
We need to also ask whilst on the topic of personal culpability, what is a politician? At the most abstract, I submit it's somebody who influences or attempts to influence the body politic. So by killing someone you perceive to be corrupt, or a lizard person, or whatever, you are in fact attempting to influence the political process. So if you hire a hitman to kill whoever, isn't somebody else justified in viewing you as corrupt and hiring a hitman to take you out?
These are just some quick moral arguments against it off the top off my head. There's a far greater problem with this notion. It doesn't really work.
First of all, let's examine your proposition:
someone hired a hitman that eliminates a few important figures,
basically sending a message that most of the people are thinking: "We
can see what you're doing and we won't just stay and do nothing"? In
my very naive opinion, this will send a warning message to any future
person occupying that role that they shouldn't fall into corruption
schemes or at least not as much.
Well, for starters, I don't think the politician in question will be falling into any corruption schemes anymore, assuming that the hitman is successful. So what message are you really sending? And to whom? The guy's dead.
So how are you getting your message across? No doubt if the politician is visibly corrupt enough, people might suspect it had something to do with it but there's no clear cut guarantee. Declaring some manifesto alongside it only increases your risk of getting caught.
Aside from your hitman probably having something to say about that; what guarantee do you have that either this corrupt cabal or the general populace is going to take you seriously? It's a nice daydream, but I don't think it really works out that way in practice.
There's another fatal flaw with your plan: Darwinism.
You see, by your stated criterion, you're only targeting the most visibly corrupt politicians. Let's assume you have a lot of money and a really good hitman. What happens in the long run? You don't kill all the corrupt politicians, you just kill the visible, and, by extension, the inept ones. That just ends up leaving the ones who excel at being corrupt. This leaves you worse off than where you started. This happens a lot in nature.
For example, we've possessed the genetic weaponry necessary to wipe out the malarial mosquito for sometime. The reason why we haven't done it, is that even though malaria kills a lot of people is that we don't know exactly what else it kills and what effects might result.
We might inadvertantly lift the lid on another disease that's even worse. One of these politicians might be corrupt but be keeping someone even worse from rising up the food-chain.
You see, for politicians to become so shameless unaccountable to their electorate, it doesn't just imply that they themselves have taken advantage of the government. What it usually means is that the institutions of government - the complex systems and ecosystems of government and governance have themselves broken down. It's quite easy for people to point to a divisive figure like say, Donald Trump, and say "It's all his fault" but the reality is that these people are the symptoms of the problem, not the cause.
The United States has had real trouble just functioning for a long time, and its democratic institutions are in many ways fundamentally broken. The causes of this are legion, but can basically be summed up with their culture and history has directly determined the outcome they have right now. Likewise, the failure of institutions and democracy in Hungary or Poland or Bulgaria (or wherever you are) aren't the result of just one person but a systemic failure. You can't cure this with a bullet - people have tried.
This leads to my last point: Unintended consequences.
We don't know what forces might be unleashed by a single assassination. Look at Archduke Ferdinand. He was killed because he was a symbol of the Austro-Hungarian domination of the Balkans. Princip believed that by assassinating him he was furthering the course of Serbian freedom. Ironically Ferdinand was a reformer, and they had a better chance under Ferdinand.
What happened instead is that the vast machinery of Europe, having almost stepped back from the brink of war, was thrown into four years of wanton and unnecessary bloodshed. The Serbian state was nearly utterly destroyed. It set the preconditions of the Second World War which was the most destructive war in history. The consequences of that single action set of a chain of events that led to the deaths of up to 100 million people.
Now maybe assassinating Viktor Orban or Justin Trudeau or whoever wouldn't set off such a conflagration, but here's the thing: you just don't know. If you paid someone to pull the trigger, all that blood is essentially on your hands.
I could go on to list all the times this hasn't worked or how internal power struggles in crumbling democracies often fail to deliver an improvement in living conditions and civil rights for the people.
The Arab Spring is a rather depressing reminder of how even well intentioned grassroots attempts at overthrowing tyranny can lead to both its entrenchment and expansion - look at Eygypt, Syria and Libya.
I think you'll also find that decapitating the leadership might effectively, most systems are somewhat resilient to it. We can look the Taliban, Al-Qaeda for examples on how despite numerous attacks/assassinations of leaders, they remain just as capable of carrying on fighting as long as their support networks are in place.
So going back to incentives. I mentioned before that in the event you described wasn't worth killing someone over. So when is it?
Let's consider briefly the Trolley Dilemma.
You see a runaway trolley moving toward five tied-up (or otherwise
incapacitated) people lying on the tracks. You are standing next to a
lever that controls a switch. If you pull the lever, the trolley will
be redirected onto a side track, and the five people on the main track
will be saved. However, there is a single person lying on the side
track. You have two options:
Do nothing and allow the trolley to kill the five people on the main
track.
Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where
it will kill one person.
Which is the more ethical option?
Another commenter brought up the example of how members of the German military tried to assassinate Hitler (I believe they tried a couple of times) and instigate a coup.
Intriguingly, someone else brought up Duterte.
There's only an ethical and pragmatic case to kill a politician where there is a clear threat to the lives of people under the rule of that person - where you can make a clear case that intervening would stop this person killing or enacting policies that would directly and explicitly result in killing innocent people. Killing Hitler might have shortened the Second World War and prevented part of the Holocaust.
In the case of Duterte, who has openly advocated and directly enabled the extrajudicial killings of tens of thousands of people, there is in fact an ethical, and perhaps, pragmatic case to intervene. This is clear and distinct from policies by national leaders who have decided to go to war in what they perceive to be the national interest, such as Russia or the United States.
These aren't ideal either, but quite distinct from using murder as an instrument of social policy. I submit that hiring a hitman to kill a single person differs only in magnitude to these crimes however, not only is it inethical in the scenario you are talking about, but from a practical standpoint, it's likely to be ineffective - and therefore even more unforgivable.
The best way to fight corruption is to build strong and empower strong democratic institutions with respect for the rule of law. This is probably cold comfort to someone living in Eastern Europe where corruption and illiberalism has been the norm for a very long time.
N.B. Please forgive what is a rather rough draft as I am procrastinating from programming at 4am. That said, probably a bad idea to kill politicians.
add a comment |
The question is titled:
Why is it a bad idea to hire a hitman [to kill corrupt] politicians?
Well, from a moral standpoint, it's wrong. It depends on your yardstick for corruption, but let's say as you imply it's some run of the mill embezzling/defruading the state.
You've implied a benchmark of:
whenever politicians became too shameless in their corruption schemes,
..implying financial misconduct.
That's an abuse of power and generally considering to be "wrong" (in the ethical sense). However, if we look at this on the basis of first principles: If I steal ten dollars from you, and you then come and kill me (hiring someone is more or the less ethically the same thing), who's committed the greater wrong, me or you?
I think you'd be hard pressed to find someonewho argues that stealing money is ethically worse than killing someone - it's disproportionate. The key attribute of retributive jsutice is that it is proportionate. To quote Wikipedia:
Retributive justice is a theory of justice that holds that the best
response to a crime is a punishment proportional to the offense,
inflicted because the offender deserves the punishment. Prevention of
future crimes (deterrence) or rehabilitation of the offender are not
considered in determining such punishments. The theory holds that when
an offender breaks the law, justice requires that he or she suffer in
return. Retribution is different from revenge because retributive
justice is directed only at wrongs, has inherent limits, is not
personal and involves no pleasure at the suffering of others[1] and
employs procedural standards.[2][3] Classical texts advocating the
retributive view include De Legibus (1st century BC), Kant's Science
of Right[4] (1790), and Hegel's Philosophy of Right[5] (1821).
From an ethical standpoint, it seems evident that hiring a hitman to kill a corrupt politician is both unjust and unethical - to a certain degree. There's also an inherent problem with your criterion:
too shameless in their corruption schemes
Your benchmark here is how visible this corruption is, or more precisely, how corrupt the individual is perceived to be. This is problematic. Let's discuss the ethical reasons first, then move on to why pragmatically this is even worse.
So the next question is: How shameless is "too shameless" ? What amount of money or kind of corruption schemes are objectively worth "sending a message over"? If, as I think you will agree, stealing ten dollars from the government not worth hiring a hitman over, what figure is ? Ten thousand dollars, one hundred thousand? What price do you put on a human life? Who gets to deem that the politician is too shameless?
The problem with this unilateral approach is that a lot of people might not agree with your methods, or your reasoning. Look at Lee Harvey Oswald, John Wilkes Booth or Mark David Chapman: Complete nutters the lot of them. How do you verify when you embark on this course of action that you yourself aren't just, yourself, a complete nutter? Unlike a functioning judicial process, there's no due process or checks and balances. Looking at today's political climate, there are probably a lot of people who would feel justified in taking that action into their own hands, even though, their criterion for action might not meet the same standards as yours.
Whilst I am no Trump fan, I certainly don't believe he should be assassinated. There are plenty of people in the U.S who do and I am certainly not comfortable with their ethical standards because if those same principles were applied, they would feel justified in killing a lot of people I would consider innocent, or at least not worthy of summary extrajudicial execution.
Can you imagine what it would be like if every SJW, right wing blogger and Youtube commenter felt they were justified in taking the lives of people who had transgressed their imaginary rulebook?
We need to also ask whilst on the topic of personal culpability, what is a politician? At the most abstract, I submit it's somebody who influences or attempts to influence the body politic. So by killing someone you perceive to be corrupt, or a lizard person, or whatever, you are in fact attempting to influence the political process. So if you hire a hitman to kill whoever, isn't somebody else justified in viewing you as corrupt and hiring a hitman to take you out?
These are just some quick moral arguments against it off the top off my head. There's a far greater problem with this notion. It doesn't really work.
First of all, let's examine your proposition:
someone hired a hitman that eliminates a few important figures,
basically sending a message that most of the people are thinking: "We
can see what you're doing and we won't just stay and do nothing"? In
my very naive opinion, this will send a warning message to any future
person occupying that role that they shouldn't fall into corruption
schemes or at least not as much.
Well, for starters, I don't think the politician in question will be falling into any corruption schemes anymore, assuming that the hitman is successful. So what message are you really sending? And to whom? The guy's dead.
So how are you getting your message across? No doubt if the politician is visibly corrupt enough, people might suspect it had something to do with it but there's no clear cut guarantee. Declaring some manifesto alongside it only increases your risk of getting caught.
Aside from your hitman probably having something to say about that; what guarantee do you have that either this corrupt cabal or the general populace is going to take you seriously? It's a nice daydream, but I don't think it really works out that way in practice.
There's another fatal flaw with your plan: Darwinism.
You see, by your stated criterion, you're only targeting the most visibly corrupt politicians. Let's assume you have a lot of money and a really good hitman. What happens in the long run? You don't kill all the corrupt politicians, you just kill the visible, and, by extension, the inept ones. That just ends up leaving the ones who excel at being corrupt. This leaves you worse off than where you started. This happens a lot in nature.
For example, we've possessed the genetic weaponry necessary to wipe out the malarial mosquito for sometime. The reason why we haven't done it, is that even though malaria kills a lot of people is that we don't know exactly what else it kills and what effects might result.
We might inadvertantly lift the lid on another disease that's even worse. One of these politicians might be corrupt but be keeping someone even worse from rising up the food-chain.
You see, for politicians to become so shameless unaccountable to their electorate, it doesn't just imply that they themselves have taken advantage of the government. What it usually means is that the institutions of government - the complex systems and ecosystems of government and governance have themselves broken down. It's quite easy for people to point to a divisive figure like say, Donald Trump, and say "It's all his fault" but the reality is that these people are the symptoms of the problem, not the cause.
The United States has had real trouble just functioning for a long time, and its democratic institutions are in many ways fundamentally broken. The causes of this are legion, but can basically be summed up with their culture and history has directly determined the outcome they have right now. Likewise, the failure of institutions and democracy in Hungary or Poland or Bulgaria (or wherever you are) aren't the result of just one person but a systemic failure. You can't cure this with a bullet - people have tried.
This leads to my last point: Unintended consequences.
We don't know what forces might be unleashed by a single assassination. Look at Archduke Ferdinand. He was killed because he was a symbol of the Austro-Hungarian domination of the Balkans. Princip believed that by assassinating him he was furthering the course of Serbian freedom. Ironically Ferdinand was a reformer, and they had a better chance under Ferdinand.
What happened instead is that the vast machinery of Europe, having almost stepped back from the brink of war, was thrown into four years of wanton and unnecessary bloodshed. The Serbian state was nearly utterly destroyed. It set the preconditions of the Second World War which was the most destructive war in history. The consequences of that single action set of a chain of events that led to the deaths of up to 100 million people.
Now maybe assassinating Viktor Orban or Justin Trudeau or whoever wouldn't set off such a conflagration, but here's the thing: you just don't know. If you paid someone to pull the trigger, all that blood is essentially on your hands.
I could go on to list all the times this hasn't worked or how internal power struggles in crumbling democracies often fail to deliver an improvement in living conditions and civil rights for the people.
The Arab Spring is a rather depressing reminder of how even well intentioned grassroots attempts at overthrowing tyranny can lead to both its entrenchment and expansion - look at Eygypt, Syria and Libya.
I think you'll also find that decapitating the leadership might effectively, most systems are somewhat resilient to it. We can look the Taliban, Al-Qaeda for examples on how despite numerous attacks/assassinations of leaders, they remain just as capable of carrying on fighting as long as their support networks are in place.
So going back to incentives. I mentioned before that in the event you described wasn't worth killing someone over. So when is it?
Let's consider briefly the Trolley Dilemma.
You see a runaway trolley moving toward five tied-up (or otherwise
incapacitated) people lying on the tracks. You are standing next to a
lever that controls a switch. If you pull the lever, the trolley will
be redirected onto a side track, and the five people on the main track
will be saved. However, there is a single person lying on the side
track. You have two options:
Do nothing and allow the trolley to kill the five people on the main
track.
Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where
it will kill one person.
Which is the more ethical option?
Another commenter brought up the example of how members of the German military tried to assassinate Hitler (I believe they tried a couple of times) and instigate a coup.
Intriguingly, someone else brought up Duterte.
There's only an ethical and pragmatic case to kill a politician where there is a clear threat to the lives of people under the rule of that person - where you can make a clear case that intervening would stop this person killing or enacting policies that would directly and explicitly result in killing innocent people. Killing Hitler might have shortened the Second World War and prevented part of the Holocaust.
In the case of Duterte, who has openly advocated and directly enabled the extrajudicial killings of tens of thousands of people, there is in fact an ethical, and perhaps, pragmatic case to intervene. This is clear and distinct from policies by national leaders who have decided to go to war in what they perceive to be the national interest, such as Russia or the United States.
These aren't ideal either, but quite distinct from using murder as an instrument of social policy. I submit that hiring a hitman to kill a single person differs only in magnitude to these crimes however, not only is it inethical in the scenario you are talking about, but from a practical standpoint, it's likely to be ineffective - and therefore even more unforgivable.
The best way to fight corruption is to build strong and empower strong democratic institutions with respect for the rule of law. This is probably cold comfort to someone living in Eastern Europe where corruption and illiberalism has been the norm for a very long time.
N.B. Please forgive what is a rather rough draft as I am procrastinating from programming at 4am. That said, probably a bad idea to kill politicians.
The question is titled:
Why is it a bad idea to hire a hitman [to kill corrupt] politicians?
Well, from a moral standpoint, it's wrong. It depends on your yardstick for corruption, but let's say as you imply it's some run of the mill embezzling/defruading the state.
You've implied a benchmark of:
whenever politicians became too shameless in their corruption schemes,
..implying financial misconduct.
That's an abuse of power and generally considering to be "wrong" (in the ethical sense). However, if we look at this on the basis of first principles: If I steal ten dollars from you, and you then come and kill me (hiring someone is more or the less ethically the same thing), who's committed the greater wrong, me or you?
I think you'd be hard pressed to find someonewho argues that stealing money is ethically worse than killing someone - it's disproportionate. The key attribute of retributive jsutice is that it is proportionate. To quote Wikipedia:
Retributive justice is a theory of justice that holds that the best
response to a crime is a punishment proportional to the offense,
inflicted because the offender deserves the punishment. Prevention of
future crimes (deterrence) or rehabilitation of the offender are not
considered in determining such punishments. The theory holds that when
an offender breaks the law, justice requires that he or she suffer in
return. Retribution is different from revenge because retributive
justice is directed only at wrongs, has inherent limits, is not
personal and involves no pleasure at the suffering of others[1] and
employs procedural standards.[2][3] Classical texts advocating the
retributive view include De Legibus (1st century BC), Kant's Science
of Right[4] (1790), and Hegel's Philosophy of Right[5] (1821).
From an ethical standpoint, it seems evident that hiring a hitman to kill a corrupt politician is both unjust and unethical - to a certain degree. There's also an inherent problem with your criterion:
too shameless in their corruption schemes
Your benchmark here is how visible this corruption is, or more precisely, how corrupt the individual is perceived to be. This is problematic. Let's discuss the ethical reasons first, then move on to why pragmatically this is even worse.
So the next question is: How shameless is "too shameless" ? What amount of money or kind of corruption schemes are objectively worth "sending a message over"? If, as I think you will agree, stealing ten dollars from the government not worth hiring a hitman over, what figure is ? Ten thousand dollars, one hundred thousand? What price do you put on a human life? Who gets to deem that the politician is too shameless?
The problem with this unilateral approach is that a lot of people might not agree with your methods, or your reasoning. Look at Lee Harvey Oswald, John Wilkes Booth or Mark David Chapman: Complete nutters the lot of them. How do you verify when you embark on this course of action that you yourself aren't just, yourself, a complete nutter? Unlike a functioning judicial process, there's no due process or checks and balances. Looking at today's political climate, there are probably a lot of people who would feel justified in taking that action into their own hands, even though, their criterion for action might not meet the same standards as yours.
Whilst I am no Trump fan, I certainly don't believe he should be assassinated. There are plenty of people in the U.S who do and I am certainly not comfortable with their ethical standards because if those same principles were applied, they would feel justified in killing a lot of people I would consider innocent, or at least not worthy of summary extrajudicial execution.
Can you imagine what it would be like if every SJW, right wing blogger and Youtube commenter felt they were justified in taking the lives of people who had transgressed their imaginary rulebook?
We need to also ask whilst on the topic of personal culpability, what is a politician? At the most abstract, I submit it's somebody who influences or attempts to influence the body politic. So by killing someone you perceive to be corrupt, or a lizard person, or whatever, you are in fact attempting to influence the political process. So if you hire a hitman to kill whoever, isn't somebody else justified in viewing you as corrupt and hiring a hitman to take you out?
These are just some quick moral arguments against it off the top off my head. There's a far greater problem with this notion. It doesn't really work.
First of all, let's examine your proposition:
someone hired a hitman that eliminates a few important figures,
basically sending a message that most of the people are thinking: "We
can see what you're doing and we won't just stay and do nothing"? In
my very naive opinion, this will send a warning message to any future
person occupying that role that they shouldn't fall into corruption
schemes or at least not as much.
Well, for starters, I don't think the politician in question will be falling into any corruption schemes anymore, assuming that the hitman is successful. So what message are you really sending? And to whom? The guy's dead.
So how are you getting your message across? No doubt if the politician is visibly corrupt enough, people might suspect it had something to do with it but there's no clear cut guarantee. Declaring some manifesto alongside it only increases your risk of getting caught.
Aside from your hitman probably having something to say about that; what guarantee do you have that either this corrupt cabal or the general populace is going to take you seriously? It's a nice daydream, but I don't think it really works out that way in practice.
There's another fatal flaw with your plan: Darwinism.
You see, by your stated criterion, you're only targeting the most visibly corrupt politicians. Let's assume you have a lot of money and a really good hitman. What happens in the long run? You don't kill all the corrupt politicians, you just kill the visible, and, by extension, the inept ones. That just ends up leaving the ones who excel at being corrupt. This leaves you worse off than where you started. This happens a lot in nature.
For example, we've possessed the genetic weaponry necessary to wipe out the malarial mosquito for sometime. The reason why we haven't done it, is that even though malaria kills a lot of people is that we don't know exactly what else it kills and what effects might result.
We might inadvertantly lift the lid on another disease that's even worse. One of these politicians might be corrupt but be keeping someone even worse from rising up the food-chain.
You see, for politicians to become so shameless unaccountable to their electorate, it doesn't just imply that they themselves have taken advantage of the government. What it usually means is that the institutions of government - the complex systems and ecosystems of government and governance have themselves broken down. It's quite easy for people to point to a divisive figure like say, Donald Trump, and say "It's all his fault" but the reality is that these people are the symptoms of the problem, not the cause.
The United States has had real trouble just functioning for a long time, and its democratic institutions are in many ways fundamentally broken. The causes of this are legion, but can basically be summed up with their culture and history has directly determined the outcome they have right now. Likewise, the failure of institutions and democracy in Hungary or Poland or Bulgaria (or wherever you are) aren't the result of just one person but a systemic failure. You can't cure this with a bullet - people have tried.
This leads to my last point: Unintended consequences.
We don't know what forces might be unleashed by a single assassination. Look at Archduke Ferdinand. He was killed because he was a symbol of the Austro-Hungarian domination of the Balkans. Princip believed that by assassinating him he was furthering the course of Serbian freedom. Ironically Ferdinand was a reformer, and they had a better chance under Ferdinand.
What happened instead is that the vast machinery of Europe, having almost stepped back from the brink of war, was thrown into four years of wanton and unnecessary bloodshed. The Serbian state was nearly utterly destroyed. It set the preconditions of the Second World War which was the most destructive war in history. The consequences of that single action set of a chain of events that led to the deaths of up to 100 million people.
Now maybe assassinating Viktor Orban or Justin Trudeau or whoever wouldn't set off such a conflagration, but here's the thing: you just don't know. If you paid someone to pull the trigger, all that blood is essentially on your hands.
I could go on to list all the times this hasn't worked or how internal power struggles in crumbling democracies often fail to deliver an improvement in living conditions and civil rights for the people.
The Arab Spring is a rather depressing reminder of how even well intentioned grassroots attempts at overthrowing tyranny can lead to both its entrenchment and expansion - look at Eygypt, Syria and Libya.
I think you'll also find that decapitating the leadership might effectively, most systems are somewhat resilient to it. We can look the Taliban, Al-Qaeda for examples on how despite numerous attacks/assassinations of leaders, they remain just as capable of carrying on fighting as long as their support networks are in place.
So going back to incentives. I mentioned before that in the event you described wasn't worth killing someone over. So when is it?
Let's consider briefly the Trolley Dilemma.
You see a runaway trolley moving toward five tied-up (or otherwise
incapacitated) people lying on the tracks. You are standing next to a
lever that controls a switch. If you pull the lever, the trolley will
be redirected onto a side track, and the five people on the main track
will be saved. However, there is a single person lying on the side
track. You have two options:
Do nothing and allow the trolley to kill the five people on the main
track.
Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where
it will kill one person.
Which is the more ethical option?
Another commenter brought up the example of how members of the German military tried to assassinate Hitler (I believe they tried a couple of times) and instigate a coup.
Intriguingly, someone else brought up Duterte.
There's only an ethical and pragmatic case to kill a politician where there is a clear threat to the lives of people under the rule of that person - where you can make a clear case that intervening would stop this person killing or enacting policies that would directly and explicitly result in killing innocent people. Killing Hitler might have shortened the Second World War and prevented part of the Holocaust.
In the case of Duterte, who has openly advocated and directly enabled the extrajudicial killings of tens of thousands of people, there is in fact an ethical, and perhaps, pragmatic case to intervene. This is clear and distinct from policies by national leaders who have decided to go to war in what they perceive to be the national interest, such as Russia or the United States.
These aren't ideal either, but quite distinct from using murder as an instrument of social policy. I submit that hiring a hitman to kill a single person differs only in magnitude to these crimes however, not only is it inethical in the scenario you are talking about, but from a practical standpoint, it's likely to be ineffective - and therefore even more unforgivable.
The best way to fight corruption is to build strong and empower strong democratic institutions with respect for the rule of law. This is probably cold comfort to someone living in Eastern Europe where corruption and illiberalism has been the norm for a very long time.
N.B. Please forgive what is a rather rough draft as I am procrastinating from programming at 4am. That said, probably a bad idea to kill politicians.
edited Apr 2 at 16:58
answered Apr 2 at 16:49
AnarylAnaryl
34317
34317
add a comment |
add a comment |
First of all, what's the problem you're trying to solve?
You want better government?
Then consider that corruption may not be as big a problem as incompetence, ideology or partisanship, in some societies.
So you kill all the corrupt politicians, but leave the incompetent, ideologically-driven, hyper-partisan ones in place. You may not have solved the problem. In fact, you may have made it worse, because politicians are a mixed bag.
A politician may be corrupt and really good at constituent services. A politician may be corrupt and a staunch anti-Communist.
Also, what makes you think that a corrupt politician won't be replaced by another corrupt politician? What's the point in targeting the person if you're not targeting the conditions and incentives that enticed that person to corruption in the first place? Corruption in government is a systemic problem.
Also, what's the definition of corruption? Who sets the definition?
All big questions.
It may be worthwhile to focus on defining the problem before spending too much time on solutions. Read about the XY Problem.
To answer your question directly:
Why is it a bad idea to hire a hitman to eliminate most corrupt politicians?
People are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law (at least in the United States).
What happens when you kill a politician you thought was corrupt, and it turns out he was innocent?
That's why we have a criminal justice system.
And why limit it to corrupt politicians? Why not engage in extrajudicial killings of alleged rapists, kidnappers, pedophiles, adulterers and car thiefs?
Keep in mind that in the United States there are many people on death row who have gone through extensive police investigations and court reviews. Their appeals are exhausted and they are simply awaiting execution. Sometimes, after many years, new evidence surfaces, witnesses recant or something else happens proving innocence. The inmate wins his freedom. Other times its too late.
Imagine what would happen with fewer layers of review, less oversight and faster sentencing.
8
Not only that, but "purging corrupt officials" is often used as an excuse to get rid of political opponents (as in the Philippines).
– 200_success
Apr 2 at 22:30
add a comment |
First of all, what's the problem you're trying to solve?
You want better government?
Then consider that corruption may not be as big a problem as incompetence, ideology or partisanship, in some societies.
So you kill all the corrupt politicians, but leave the incompetent, ideologically-driven, hyper-partisan ones in place. You may not have solved the problem. In fact, you may have made it worse, because politicians are a mixed bag.
A politician may be corrupt and really good at constituent services. A politician may be corrupt and a staunch anti-Communist.
Also, what makes you think that a corrupt politician won't be replaced by another corrupt politician? What's the point in targeting the person if you're not targeting the conditions and incentives that enticed that person to corruption in the first place? Corruption in government is a systemic problem.
Also, what's the definition of corruption? Who sets the definition?
All big questions.
It may be worthwhile to focus on defining the problem before spending too much time on solutions. Read about the XY Problem.
To answer your question directly:
Why is it a bad idea to hire a hitman to eliminate most corrupt politicians?
People are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law (at least in the United States).
What happens when you kill a politician you thought was corrupt, and it turns out he was innocent?
That's why we have a criminal justice system.
And why limit it to corrupt politicians? Why not engage in extrajudicial killings of alleged rapists, kidnappers, pedophiles, adulterers and car thiefs?
Keep in mind that in the United States there are many people on death row who have gone through extensive police investigations and court reviews. Their appeals are exhausted and they are simply awaiting execution. Sometimes, after many years, new evidence surfaces, witnesses recant or something else happens proving innocence. The inmate wins his freedom. Other times its too late.
Imagine what would happen with fewer layers of review, less oversight and faster sentencing.
8
Not only that, but "purging corrupt officials" is often used as an excuse to get rid of political opponents (as in the Philippines).
– 200_success
Apr 2 at 22:30
add a comment |
First of all, what's the problem you're trying to solve?
You want better government?
Then consider that corruption may not be as big a problem as incompetence, ideology or partisanship, in some societies.
So you kill all the corrupt politicians, but leave the incompetent, ideologically-driven, hyper-partisan ones in place. You may not have solved the problem. In fact, you may have made it worse, because politicians are a mixed bag.
A politician may be corrupt and really good at constituent services. A politician may be corrupt and a staunch anti-Communist.
Also, what makes you think that a corrupt politician won't be replaced by another corrupt politician? What's the point in targeting the person if you're not targeting the conditions and incentives that enticed that person to corruption in the first place? Corruption in government is a systemic problem.
Also, what's the definition of corruption? Who sets the definition?
All big questions.
It may be worthwhile to focus on defining the problem before spending too much time on solutions. Read about the XY Problem.
To answer your question directly:
Why is it a bad idea to hire a hitman to eliminate most corrupt politicians?
People are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law (at least in the United States).
What happens when you kill a politician you thought was corrupt, and it turns out he was innocent?
That's why we have a criminal justice system.
And why limit it to corrupt politicians? Why not engage in extrajudicial killings of alleged rapists, kidnappers, pedophiles, adulterers and car thiefs?
Keep in mind that in the United States there are many people on death row who have gone through extensive police investigations and court reviews. Their appeals are exhausted and they are simply awaiting execution. Sometimes, after many years, new evidence surfaces, witnesses recant or something else happens proving innocence. The inmate wins his freedom. Other times its too late.
Imagine what would happen with fewer layers of review, less oversight and faster sentencing.
First of all, what's the problem you're trying to solve?
You want better government?
Then consider that corruption may not be as big a problem as incompetence, ideology or partisanship, in some societies.
So you kill all the corrupt politicians, but leave the incompetent, ideologically-driven, hyper-partisan ones in place. You may not have solved the problem. In fact, you may have made it worse, because politicians are a mixed bag.
A politician may be corrupt and really good at constituent services. A politician may be corrupt and a staunch anti-Communist.
Also, what makes you think that a corrupt politician won't be replaced by another corrupt politician? What's the point in targeting the person if you're not targeting the conditions and incentives that enticed that person to corruption in the first place? Corruption in government is a systemic problem.
Also, what's the definition of corruption? Who sets the definition?
All big questions.
It may be worthwhile to focus on defining the problem before spending too much time on solutions. Read about the XY Problem.
To answer your question directly:
Why is it a bad idea to hire a hitman to eliminate most corrupt politicians?
People are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law (at least in the United States).
What happens when you kill a politician you thought was corrupt, and it turns out he was innocent?
That's why we have a criminal justice system.
And why limit it to corrupt politicians? Why not engage in extrajudicial killings of alleged rapists, kidnappers, pedophiles, adulterers and car thiefs?
Keep in mind that in the United States there are many people on death row who have gone through extensive police investigations and court reviews. Their appeals are exhausted and they are simply awaiting execution. Sometimes, after many years, new evidence surfaces, witnesses recant or something else happens proving innocence. The inmate wins his freedom. Other times its too late.
Imagine what would happen with fewer layers of review, less oversight and faster sentencing.
edited 13 hours ago
answered Apr 2 at 21:21
Michael_BMichael_B
8,68052332
8,68052332
8
Not only that, but "purging corrupt officials" is often used as an excuse to get rid of political opponents (as in the Philippines).
– 200_success
Apr 2 at 22:30
add a comment |
8
Not only that, but "purging corrupt officials" is often used as an excuse to get rid of political opponents (as in the Philippines).
– 200_success
Apr 2 at 22:30
8
8
Not only that, but "purging corrupt officials" is often used as an excuse to get rid of political opponents (as in the Philippines).
– 200_success
Apr 2 at 22:30
Not only that, but "purging corrupt officials" is often used as an excuse to get rid of political opponents (as in the Philippines).
– 200_success
Apr 2 at 22:30
add a comment |
There are two obvious problems beyond the ethical ones.
1) The practical problem of cost. Nobody has enough money to get them all, even if there were enough competent hit-persons to do the job.
2) Are "corrupt" politicians really the problem, or is it the honest but incompetent and/or driven by ideology ones? After all, the corrupt politician wants to do a good enough job so that s/he can stay in office and keep on collecting money.
add a comment |
There are two obvious problems beyond the ethical ones.
1) The practical problem of cost. Nobody has enough money to get them all, even if there were enough competent hit-persons to do the job.
2) Are "corrupt" politicians really the problem, or is it the honest but incompetent and/or driven by ideology ones? After all, the corrupt politician wants to do a good enough job so that s/he can stay in office and keep on collecting money.
add a comment |
There are two obvious problems beyond the ethical ones.
1) The practical problem of cost. Nobody has enough money to get them all, even if there were enough competent hit-persons to do the job.
2) Are "corrupt" politicians really the problem, or is it the honest but incompetent and/or driven by ideology ones? After all, the corrupt politician wants to do a good enough job so that s/he can stay in office and keep on collecting money.
There are two obvious problems beyond the ethical ones.
1) The practical problem of cost. Nobody has enough money to get them all, even if there were enough competent hit-persons to do the job.
2) Are "corrupt" politicians really the problem, or is it the honest but incompetent and/or driven by ideology ones? After all, the corrupt politician wants to do a good enough job so that s/he can stay in office and keep on collecting money.
edited 2 days ago
answered Apr 2 at 16:30
jamesqfjamesqf
3,362716
3,362716
add a comment |
add a comment |
This would only work if you had some sort of infallible, morally pure, by everyone's standards (the disqualifying factor, right there), arbiter of right or wrong, that everyone else would defer to regarding who lives and who dies.
Otherwise, each and every political viewpoint would have their own image of who is good and who is evil, and motivated individuals would take it upon themselves to act. Conservative? Hillary deserves to die for the child sex ring in the basement of a pizzeria.... that was in a building that didn't have a basement.
Wikipedia: Pizzagate conspiracy theory
Complete conspiracy nut? Bush and Cheney must die for their 9/11 hoax where they used chemtrails and nano-bots to blow up the World Trade Centers.
Screaming liberal? Trump must die for ordering Russians to throw the election to him.
All of the above scenarios are either out and out nonsense, or probably do not have the level of "Dr Evil" scheming or control as many claim.
Basically, you'd have a free for all of executions by anyone and everyone thinking they are morally upright and those that disagree with them are not. In the United States, with our insanely tribal and polarized atmosphere and a heavily armed populace, you're talking drug-cartel level violence as public policy.
This entire premise would only work if there was a way to administer the lethal justice in a fair and impartial manner, and if there was a way to administer justice like that, then those means would exist for non-lethal sanctions, as well, making the lethal answer unnecessary. It relies on an impossible or unrealistic set of conditions in order to be administered in any kind of workable manner.
Was about to add an answer of my own but instead upvoted this one which pretty much covers it. The only thing I would add is that, leaving aside ethics/morals, the flaw in OP's logic comes in the statement that assassination is 'basically sending a message that most of the people are thinking: "We can see what you're doing and we won't just stay and do nothing"'—whereas in reality all it does is send the message that at least one person (with the means to hire an assassin) thinks that.
– jez
2 days ago
"infallible, morally pure, by everyone's standards (the disqualifying factor, right there), arbiter of right or wrong..." and this is why superhero movies are so popular these days. Many people would love to have Batman take care of those no-good so-and-sos - and in the movies they never go after the wrong guy.
– Jon of All Trades
yesterday
add a comment |
This would only work if you had some sort of infallible, morally pure, by everyone's standards (the disqualifying factor, right there), arbiter of right or wrong, that everyone else would defer to regarding who lives and who dies.
Otherwise, each and every political viewpoint would have their own image of who is good and who is evil, and motivated individuals would take it upon themselves to act. Conservative? Hillary deserves to die for the child sex ring in the basement of a pizzeria.... that was in a building that didn't have a basement.
Wikipedia: Pizzagate conspiracy theory
Complete conspiracy nut? Bush and Cheney must die for their 9/11 hoax where they used chemtrails and nano-bots to blow up the World Trade Centers.
Screaming liberal? Trump must die for ordering Russians to throw the election to him.
All of the above scenarios are either out and out nonsense, or probably do not have the level of "Dr Evil" scheming or control as many claim.
Basically, you'd have a free for all of executions by anyone and everyone thinking they are morally upright and those that disagree with them are not. In the United States, with our insanely tribal and polarized atmosphere and a heavily armed populace, you're talking drug-cartel level violence as public policy.
This entire premise would only work if there was a way to administer the lethal justice in a fair and impartial manner, and if there was a way to administer justice like that, then those means would exist for non-lethal sanctions, as well, making the lethal answer unnecessary. It relies on an impossible or unrealistic set of conditions in order to be administered in any kind of workable manner.
Was about to add an answer of my own but instead upvoted this one which pretty much covers it. The only thing I would add is that, leaving aside ethics/morals, the flaw in OP's logic comes in the statement that assassination is 'basically sending a message that most of the people are thinking: "We can see what you're doing and we won't just stay and do nothing"'—whereas in reality all it does is send the message that at least one person (with the means to hire an assassin) thinks that.
– jez
2 days ago
"infallible, morally pure, by everyone's standards (the disqualifying factor, right there), arbiter of right or wrong..." and this is why superhero movies are so popular these days. Many people would love to have Batman take care of those no-good so-and-sos - and in the movies they never go after the wrong guy.
– Jon of All Trades
yesterday
add a comment |
This would only work if you had some sort of infallible, morally pure, by everyone's standards (the disqualifying factor, right there), arbiter of right or wrong, that everyone else would defer to regarding who lives and who dies.
Otherwise, each and every political viewpoint would have their own image of who is good and who is evil, and motivated individuals would take it upon themselves to act. Conservative? Hillary deserves to die for the child sex ring in the basement of a pizzeria.... that was in a building that didn't have a basement.
Wikipedia: Pizzagate conspiracy theory
Complete conspiracy nut? Bush and Cheney must die for their 9/11 hoax where they used chemtrails and nano-bots to blow up the World Trade Centers.
Screaming liberal? Trump must die for ordering Russians to throw the election to him.
All of the above scenarios are either out and out nonsense, or probably do not have the level of "Dr Evil" scheming or control as many claim.
Basically, you'd have a free for all of executions by anyone and everyone thinking they are morally upright and those that disagree with them are not. In the United States, with our insanely tribal and polarized atmosphere and a heavily armed populace, you're talking drug-cartel level violence as public policy.
This entire premise would only work if there was a way to administer the lethal justice in a fair and impartial manner, and if there was a way to administer justice like that, then those means would exist for non-lethal sanctions, as well, making the lethal answer unnecessary. It relies on an impossible or unrealistic set of conditions in order to be administered in any kind of workable manner.
This would only work if you had some sort of infallible, morally pure, by everyone's standards (the disqualifying factor, right there), arbiter of right or wrong, that everyone else would defer to regarding who lives and who dies.
Otherwise, each and every political viewpoint would have their own image of who is good and who is evil, and motivated individuals would take it upon themselves to act. Conservative? Hillary deserves to die for the child sex ring in the basement of a pizzeria.... that was in a building that didn't have a basement.
Wikipedia: Pizzagate conspiracy theory
Complete conspiracy nut? Bush and Cheney must die for their 9/11 hoax where they used chemtrails and nano-bots to blow up the World Trade Centers.
Screaming liberal? Trump must die for ordering Russians to throw the election to him.
All of the above scenarios are either out and out nonsense, or probably do not have the level of "Dr Evil" scheming or control as many claim.
Basically, you'd have a free for all of executions by anyone and everyone thinking they are morally upright and those that disagree with them are not. In the United States, with our insanely tribal and polarized atmosphere and a heavily armed populace, you're talking drug-cartel level violence as public policy.
This entire premise would only work if there was a way to administer the lethal justice in a fair and impartial manner, and if there was a way to administer justice like that, then those means would exist for non-lethal sanctions, as well, making the lethal answer unnecessary. It relies on an impossible or unrealistic set of conditions in order to be administered in any kind of workable manner.
edited 2 days ago
answered 2 days ago
PoloHoleSetPoloHoleSet
12.1k12857
12.1k12857
Was about to add an answer of my own but instead upvoted this one which pretty much covers it. The only thing I would add is that, leaving aside ethics/morals, the flaw in OP's logic comes in the statement that assassination is 'basically sending a message that most of the people are thinking: "We can see what you're doing and we won't just stay and do nothing"'—whereas in reality all it does is send the message that at least one person (with the means to hire an assassin) thinks that.
– jez
2 days ago
"infallible, morally pure, by everyone's standards (the disqualifying factor, right there), arbiter of right or wrong..." and this is why superhero movies are so popular these days. Many people would love to have Batman take care of those no-good so-and-sos - and in the movies they never go after the wrong guy.
– Jon of All Trades
yesterday
add a comment |
Was about to add an answer of my own but instead upvoted this one which pretty much covers it. The only thing I would add is that, leaving aside ethics/morals, the flaw in OP's logic comes in the statement that assassination is 'basically sending a message that most of the people are thinking: "We can see what you're doing and we won't just stay and do nothing"'—whereas in reality all it does is send the message that at least one person (with the means to hire an assassin) thinks that.
– jez
2 days ago
"infallible, morally pure, by everyone's standards (the disqualifying factor, right there), arbiter of right or wrong..." and this is why superhero movies are so popular these days. Many people would love to have Batman take care of those no-good so-and-sos - and in the movies they never go after the wrong guy.
– Jon of All Trades
yesterday
Was about to add an answer of my own but instead upvoted this one which pretty much covers it. The only thing I would add is that, leaving aside ethics/morals, the flaw in OP's logic comes in the statement that assassination is 'basically sending a message that most of the people are thinking: "We can see what you're doing and we won't just stay and do nothing"'—whereas in reality all it does is send the message that at least one person (with the means to hire an assassin) thinks that.
– jez
2 days ago
Was about to add an answer of my own but instead upvoted this one which pretty much covers it. The only thing I would add is that, leaving aside ethics/morals, the flaw in OP's logic comes in the statement that assassination is 'basically sending a message that most of the people are thinking: "We can see what you're doing and we won't just stay and do nothing"'—whereas in reality all it does is send the message that at least one person (with the means to hire an assassin) thinks that.
– jez
2 days ago
"infallible, morally pure, by everyone's standards (the disqualifying factor, right there), arbiter of right or wrong..." and this is why superhero movies are so popular these days. Many people would love to have Batman take care of those no-good so-and-sos - and in the movies they never go after the wrong guy.
– Jon of All Trades
yesterday
"infallible, morally pure, by everyone's standards (the disqualifying factor, right there), arbiter of right or wrong..." and this is why superhero movies are so popular these days. Many people would love to have Batman take care of those no-good so-and-sos - and in the movies they never go after the wrong guy.
– Jon of All Trades
yesterday
add a comment |
Just to add to the discussion, killing a corrupt leader is a bad idea from the stand point of stable and sustainable governments to follow. Not only assassination, which is in my opinion a plan with a consensus of limited number of people & ideology and power comes from consensus of large number of people, but also killing the leader in general is a bad idea we have seen few examples of this in history.
The French revolution comes to mind first. Robespierre's head cutting spree ended with his head on the guillotine and a very bad constitution. Gadaffi's killing also threw Libya in a state of anarchy, even though in both cases there was a general consensus that leaders were corrupt and needed replacement.
When killing a leader is accepted in a society, there is no room for rule of law and society would fragment. Assassinations would lead to disagreements being settled by violence and no leader to be chosen as disagreements will always remain, society would be headless, and anarchy would prevail.
add a comment |
Just to add to the discussion, killing a corrupt leader is a bad idea from the stand point of stable and sustainable governments to follow. Not only assassination, which is in my opinion a plan with a consensus of limited number of people & ideology and power comes from consensus of large number of people, but also killing the leader in general is a bad idea we have seen few examples of this in history.
The French revolution comes to mind first. Robespierre's head cutting spree ended with his head on the guillotine and a very bad constitution. Gadaffi's killing also threw Libya in a state of anarchy, even though in both cases there was a general consensus that leaders were corrupt and needed replacement.
When killing a leader is accepted in a society, there is no room for rule of law and society would fragment. Assassinations would lead to disagreements being settled by violence and no leader to be chosen as disagreements will always remain, society would be headless, and anarchy would prevail.
add a comment |
Just to add to the discussion, killing a corrupt leader is a bad idea from the stand point of stable and sustainable governments to follow. Not only assassination, which is in my opinion a plan with a consensus of limited number of people & ideology and power comes from consensus of large number of people, but also killing the leader in general is a bad idea we have seen few examples of this in history.
The French revolution comes to mind first. Robespierre's head cutting spree ended with his head on the guillotine and a very bad constitution. Gadaffi's killing also threw Libya in a state of anarchy, even though in both cases there was a general consensus that leaders were corrupt and needed replacement.
When killing a leader is accepted in a society, there is no room for rule of law and society would fragment. Assassinations would lead to disagreements being settled by violence and no leader to be chosen as disagreements will always remain, society would be headless, and anarchy would prevail.
Just to add to the discussion, killing a corrupt leader is a bad idea from the stand point of stable and sustainable governments to follow. Not only assassination, which is in my opinion a plan with a consensus of limited number of people & ideology and power comes from consensus of large number of people, but also killing the leader in general is a bad idea we have seen few examples of this in history.
The French revolution comes to mind first. Robespierre's head cutting spree ended with his head on the guillotine and a very bad constitution. Gadaffi's killing also threw Libya in a state of anarchy, even though in both cases there was a general consensus that leaders were corrupt and needed replacement.
When killing a leader is accepted in a society, there is no room for rule of law and society would fragment. Assassinations would lead to disagreements being settled by violence and no leader to be chosen as disagreements will always remain, society would be headless, and anarchy would prevail.
edited yesterday
JJJ
5,83022353
5,83022353
answered 2 days ago
Aditya SinghAditya Singh
912
912
add a comment |
add a comment |
The entire idea behind presidential impeachment is to reduce the likelihood of assassination. Furthermore, the right to bear arms was intended to ensure that the government would fear the people, and not the people fear the government.
As revolutionaries, the people behind the American and French wars for independence actually did consider that assassination was a logical form of resistance.
French war for independence? Louis XVI's France was independent. Do you mean the Revolutionary Wars?
– Peter Mortensen
yesterday
add a comment |
The entire idea behind presidential impeachment is to reduce the likelihood of assassination. Furthermore, the right to bear arms was intended to ensure that the government would fear the people, and not the people fear the government.
As revolutionaries, the people behind the American and French wars for independence actually did consider that assassination was a logical form of resistance.
French war for independence? Louis XVI's France was independent. Do you mean the Revolutionary Wars?
– Peter Mortensen
yesterday
add a comment |
The entire idea behind presidential impeachment is to reduce the likelihood of assassination. Furthermore, the right to bear arms was intended to ensure that the government would fear the people, and not the people fear the government.
As revolutionaries, the people behind the American and French wars for independence actually did consider that assassination was a logical form of resistance.
The entire idea behind presidential impeachment is to reduce the likelihood of assassination. Furthermore, the right to bear arms was intended to ensure that the government would fear the people, and not the people fear the government.
As revolutionaries, the people behind the American and French wars for independence actually did consider that assassination was a logical form of resistance.
answered Apr 2 at 16:33
dotancohendotancohen
181110
181110
French war for independence? Louis XVI's France was independent. Do you mean the Revolutionary Wars?
– Peter Mortensen
yesterday
add a comment |
French war for independence? Louis XVI's France was independent. Do you mean the Revolutionary Wars?
– Peter Mortensen
yesterday
French war for independence? Louis XVI's France was independent. Do you mean the Revolutionary Wars?
– Peter Mortensen
yesterday
French war for independence? Louis XVI's France was independent. Do you mean the Revolutionary Wars?
– Peter Mortensen
yesterday
add a comment |
Surprised I don't see this point made clear anywhere yet:
In the United States (a simple example, but many others have similar divides), a sizable portion of the population thinks that most democrats are corrupt and a sizable portion of the population thinks that most republicans are corrupt.
Let's say your proposal becomes reality: everyone kills everyone else, and practically no politicians remain.
You are left without a functioning state government, not with a state government devoid of corrupt politicians, and you have anarchy - which some people (not myself) would embrace.
add a comment |
Surprised I don't see this point made clear anywhere yet:
In the United States (a simple example, but many others have similar divides), a sizable portion of the population thinks that most democrats are corrupt and a sizable portion of the population thinks that most republicans are corrupt.
Let's say your proposal becomes reality: everyone kills everyone else, and practically no politicians remain.
You are left without a functioning state government, not with a state government devoid of corrupt politicians, and you have anarchy - which some people (not myself) would embrace.
add a comment |
Surprised I don't see this point made clear anywhere yet:
In the United States (a simple example, but many others have similar divides), a sizable portion of the population thinks that most democrats are corrupt and a sizable portion of the population thinks that most republicans are corrupt.
Let's say your proposal becomes reality: everyone kills everyone else, and practically no politicians remain.
You are left without a functioning state government, not with a state government devoid of corrupt politicians, and you have anarchy - which some people (not myself) would embrace.
Surprised I don't see this point made clear anywhere yet:
In the United States (a simple example, but many others have similar divides), a sizable portion of the population thinks that most democrats are corrupt and a sizable portion of the population thinks that most republicans are corrupt.
Let's say your proposal becomes reality: everyone kills everyone else, and practically no politicians remain.
You are left without a functioning state government, not with a state government devoid of corrupt politicians, and you have anarchy - which some people (not myself) would embrace.
answered 2 days ago
AaronAaron
4741311
4741311
add a comment |
add a comment |
I believe as an outsider to power, one is not qualified to make such a decision to change the balance of power. You are not privy to secret information, or classified information.
e.g. The bomb attempt on Hitler was carried out by those within a close circle of power.
Extrajudicial killings may need to be made with information that only a small group of those in power know as well as understand.
Certainly, those at the top of a hierarchy may decide that a certain member needs to be removed, but why choose such a method, when courts, shame, and infamy are just as effective. Why get one's hands bloody?
2
I'd argue that courts, shame, and infamy are rather ineffective tools against corrupt politicians.
– Nuclear Wang
Apr 2 at 15:16
1
@NuclearWang Only if they have a broad power base. i.e. Many other corrupt politicians, bureaucrats, judges, and such ilk.
– paulj
Apr 2 at 16:40
add a comment |
I believe as an outsider to power, one is not qualified to make such a decision to change the balance of power. You are not privy to secret information, or classified information.
e.g. The bomb attempt on Hitler was carried out by those within a close circle of power.
Extrajudicial killings may need to be made with information that only a small group of those in power know as well as understand.
Certainly, those at the top of a hierarchy may decide that a certain member needs to be removed, but why choose such a method, when courts, shame, and infamy are just as effective. Why get one's hands bloody?
2
I'd argue that courts, shame, and infamy are rather ineffective tools against corrupt politicians.
– Nuclear Wang
Apr 2 at 15:16
1
@NuclearWang Only if they have a broad power base. i.e. Many other corrupt politicians, bureaucrats, judges, and such ilk.
– paulj
Apr 2 at 16:40
add a comment |
I believe as an outsider to power, one is not qualified to make such a decision to change the balance of power. You are not privy to secret information, or classified information.
e.g. The bomb attempt on Hitler was carried out by those within a close circle of power.
Extrajudicial killings may need to be made with information that only a small group of those in power know as well as understand.
Certainly, those at the top of a hierarchy may decide that a certain member needs to be removed, but why choose such a method, when courts, shame, and infamy are just as effective. Why get one's hands bloody?
I believe as an outsider to power, one is not qualified to make such a decision to change the balance of power. You are not privy to secret information, or classified information.
e.g. The bomb attempt on Hitler was carried out by those within a close circle of power.
Extrajudicial killings may need to be made with information that only a small group of those in power know as well as understand.
Certainly, those at the top of a hierarchy may decide that a certain member needs to be removed, but why choose such a method, when courts, shame, and infamy are just as effective. Why get one's hands bloody?
answered Apr 2 at 14:58
pauljpaulj
1376
1376
2
I'd argue that courts, shame, and infamy are rather ineffective tools against corrupt politicians.
– Nuclear Wang
Apr 2 at 15:16
1
@NuclearWang Only if they have a broad power base. i.e. Many other corrupt politicians, bureaucrats, judges, and such ilk.
– paulj
Apr 2 at 16:40
add a comment |
2
I'd argue that courts, shame, and infamy are rather ineffective tools against corrupt politicians.
– Nuclear Wang
Apr 2 at 15:16
1
@NuclearWang Only if they have a broad power base. i.e. Many other corrupt politicians, bureaucrats, judges, and such ilk.
– paulj
Apr 2 at 16:40
2
2
I'd argue that courts, shame, and infamy are rather ineffective tools against corrupt politicians.
– Nuclear Wang
Apr 2 at 15:16
I'd argue that courts, shame, and infamy are rather ineffective tools against corrupt politicians.
– Nuclear Wang
Apr 2 at 15:16
1
1
@NuclearWang Only if they have a broad power base. i.e. Many other corrupt politicians, bureaucrats, judges, and such ilk.
– paulj
Apr 2 at 16:40
@NuclearWang Only if they have a broad power base. i.e. Many other corrupt politicians, bureaucrats, judges, and such ilk.
– paulj
Apr 2 at 16:40
add a comment |
Instead of assassinating the corrupt politician(s), why not simply punish them as any other criminal? Such as with jail time.
Your answer might be that:
- He will just pay off the jailers or police or any other person in the process.
But this answer then means that this politician is not the only corrupt person - it implies that all of society is corrupt or at least that people with some responsibility and power are corrupt.
If this is the case, then alternative punishments like jail time will do nothing. Also, assassinating the politician will do nothing, because the next to take over will also be corrupt.
So, in essence, assassination will work no better than any other type of punishment. If the system / society as a whole is corrupt, then it will help nothing to assassinate just one of many corrupt politicians. And if the society is fine, then more humane and normal punishments will do just fine.
Assassinations is not an accepted punishment anywhere I know of, and so it will never be a method to use. Either use the proper punishment, or forget about punishment methods entirely (and instead work in the culture from within).
The argument that one assassination will scare off other politicians from continuing to be corrupt might only risk on a more brutal government as has been seen with tyrannical government throughout history that had to keep their people in place.
add a comment |
Instead of assassinating the corrupt politician(s), why not simply punish them as any other criminal? Such as with jail time.
Your answer might be that:
- He will just pay off the jailers or police or any other person in the process.
But this answer then means that this politician is not the only corrupt person - it implies that all of society is corrupt or at least that people with some responsibility and power are corrupt.
If this is the case, then alternative punishments like jail time will do nothing. Also, assassinating the politician will do nothing, because the next to take over will also be corrupt.
So, in essence, assassination will work no better than any other type of punishment. If the system / society as a whole is corrupt, then it will help nothing to assassinate just one of many corrupt politicians. And if the society is fine, then more humane and normal punishments will do just fine.
Assassinations is not an accepted punishment anywhere I know of, and so it will never be a method to use. Either use the proper punishment, or forget about punishment methods entirely (and instead work in the culture from within).
The argument that one assassination will scare off other politicians from continuing to be corrupt might only risk on a more brutal government as has been seen with tyrannical government throughout history that had to keep their people in place.
add a comment |
Instead of assassinating the corrupt politician(s), why not simply punish them as any other criminal? Such as with jail time.
Your answer might be that:
- He will just pay off the jailers or police or any other person in the process.
But this answer then means that this politician is not the only corrupt person - it implies that all of society is corrupt or at least that people with some responsibility and power are corrupt.
If this is the case, then alternative punishments like jail time will do nothing. Also, assassinating the politician will do nothing, because the next to take over will also be corrupt.
So, in essence, assassination will work no better than any other type of punishment. If the system / society as a whole is corrupt, then it will help nothing to assassinate just one of many corrupt politicians. And if the society is fine, then more humane and normal punishments will do just fine.
Assassinations is not an accepted punishment anywhere I know of, and so it will never be a method to use. Either use the proper punishment, or forget about punishment methods entirely (and instead work in the culture from within).
The argument that one assassination will scare off other politicians from continuing to be corrupt might only risk on a more brutal government as has been seen with tyrannical government throughout history that had to keep their people in place.
Instead of assassinating the corrupt politician(s), why not simply punish them as any other criminal? Such as with jail time.
Your answer might be that:
- He will just pay off the jailers or police or any other person in the process.
But this answer then means that this politician is not the only corrupt person - it implies that all of society is corrupt or at least that people with some responsibility and power are corrupt.
If this is the case, then alternative punishments like jail time will do nothing. Also, assassinating the politician will do nothing, because the next to take over will also be corrupt.
So, in essence, assassination will work no better than any other type of punishment. If the system / society as a whole is corrupt, then it will help nothing to assassinate just one of many corrupt politicians. And if the society is fine, then more humane and normal punishments will do just fine.
Assassinations is not an accepted punishment anywhere I know of, and so it will never be a method to use. Either use the proper punishment, or forget about punishment methods entirely (and instead work in the culture from within).
The argument that one assassination will scare off other politicians from continuing to be corrupt might only risk on a more brutal government as has been seen with tyrannical government throughout history that had to keep their people in place.
answered 15 hours ago
SteevenSteeven
31718
31718
add a comment |
add a comment |
protected by Philipp♦ Apr 2 at 15:08
Thank you for your interest in this question.
Because it has attracted low-quality or spam answers that had to be removed, posting an answer now requires 10 reputation on this site (the association bonus does not count).
Would you like to answer one of these unanswered questions instead?
@JJJ: I've rolled back your title edit. The question was not simply asking about incentives (perverse or otherwise). As I understood it, it's mostly about (bad/unintended) consequences of this course of action.
– Fizz
Apr 2 at 10:20
38
I understand that this is an academic question, but could you reword it to make it very clear that you're not in any way suggesting that this is a valid solution or good idea? There are too many people who would like to take out world leaders today, and they don't need encouragement.
– bob
Apr 2 at 15:50
5
Lots of comments deleted. Please don't answer the question in comments. For more information on what comments should and should not be used for, please review the help article about the commenting privilege.
– Philipp♦
Apr 2 at 16:39
1
I have heard on multiple occasions about this idea and I think this is on-topic, since it is clearly related to how some perceive politics. Also the most voted answers explain very well why this is a terrible idea and they are useful for future readers (one of the goals of SE network),
– Alexei
yesterday
Isn't this an ethical question rather than political? Almost any political system will have strong rules against harming the people who write the rules, for obvious reasons, but you seem to be interested in extra-legal solutions.
– Jon of All Trades
yesterday